Does everyone start out an atheist?

[uscitizen]

Does a new born child belive in a god or deity?

[PostmodernProphet]

a newborn only believes in breasts.....though, if you can document even a two year old who denies the existence of deity, I may listen to you for a while.....

[uscitizen]

Some on here still only believe in breasts :)


Actually I think the label of agnostic would apply to children to young to decide.

[Damocles]

a newborn only believes in breasts.....though, if you can document even a two year old who denies the existence of deity, I may listen to you for a while.....
I'm sure there are a few, most of whom have activist atheist parents.

I never spoke of God to my children until they asked.

[Topspin]

yes and if there's no one there to teach you the comic book of the land you will either burn in hell or be recreated into a bird

[Damocles]

yes and if there's no one there to teach you the comic book of the land you will either burn in hell or be recreated into a bird
That would be reincarnated, and that is a Hindi concept.

[Topspin]

That would be reincarnated, and that is a Hindi concept.

your correct, and you obviously get the point.
Burned or reincarnated for the most part. LOFL

[uscitizen]

Question on reincarnation. Where do all the extra "souls" come from?

I man we have hundreds of millions more people than we used to.

[Damocles]

Question on reincarnation. Where do all the extra "souls" come from?

I man we have hundreds of millions more people than we used to.
What makes you think that it is necessarily linear in a time line?

[uscitizen]

What makes you think that it is necessarily linear in a time line?


LOL

Now you are trying to give me a headache.


but a good response.

[FUCK THE POLICE]

Nonsense. Everyone starts out a Hindu.

[Demwit]

Naah they start out as republicans. Greedy for food and able to be fear driven.

[PostmodernProphet]

Question on reincarnation. Where do all the extra "souls" come from?

I man we have hundreds of millions more people than we used to.

schizophrenics?.....

[Minister of Truth]

Some on here still only believe in breasts :)

Like me? :cool:

http://www.justplainpolitics.com/do-you-like-person-above-you-p466901.html?&highlight=notes#post466901

[Damocles]

According to Muslims everybody starts out a Muslim...

[PostmodernProphet]

According to Muslims everybody starts out a Muslim...

and, if you don't stay that way....keep running....

[Whomever]

The problem is every religion is sure they are the correct one. And even within those religions the various sects think they are the correct one.

I say all are wrong.

[PostmodernProphet]

The problem is every religion is sure they are the correct one. And even within those religions the various sects think they are the correct one.

I say all are wrong.

that's because you're sure your religion is the correct one....

[Whomever]

that's because you're sure your religion is the correct one....

Not me I am pretty sure they are all wrong so I have no religion.
I worship no one or nothing.

Well maybe an exquisite home cooked meal.
But that is short term worship.

[PostmodernProphet]

I worship no one or nothing.


yeah, that's the one I'm talking about.....

[uscitizen]

No religion is a religion?

Are we back to that crap again?

[PostmodernProphet]

No religion is a religion?

Are we back to that crap again?

???....why would we leave it?....simply because you deny it?....lol.....

[Damocles]

I personally find it illogical that God would care if you worshiped or believed in Him/Her.

[Dixie - In Memoriam]

I personally find it illogical that God would care if you worshiped or believed in Him/Her.

God doesn't care, that is why he invented Free Will! :cof1:

[Dixie - In Memoriam]

Does everyone start out an atheist?

No. The word "Atheist" means "against theism" or "anti theism" and is a philosophical belief derived from personal experience. You are not inherently born with this, because when you are first born, all your thoughts and ideas are pure and innocent. Preferences in what you like and dislike, come through experience in life.

...But nice try!

[Cancel5]

According to Muslims everybody starts out a Muslim...

According to science, every man starts out a woman!

[Cancel5]

I personally find it illogical that God would care if you worshiped or believed in Him/Her.

Absolutely, that is always been one of my questions, why would it be needed, isn't worship required by those who have low self images?

[Cancel5]

God doesn't care, that is why he invented Free Will! :cof1:

Why would he need to do that?

[meme-me]

Why would he need to do that?

Well, I must get my beauty sleep and you should, too, to, tutu, otherwise, you might end up looking like a real conservative beauty! Just ask ID! She is as beautiful to me on the outside as on the inside, I just love her purtty lips! and her purtty talk. It is like nails on the chalkboard to me.

[PostmodernProphet]

I personally find it illogical that God would care if you worshiped or believed in Him/Her.

would you care if your dog stayed home only to sleep and eat, but went to the neighbor's house whenever he wanted to play with a human?......

[Topspin]

would you care if your dog stayed home only to sleep and eat, but went to the neighbor's house whenever he wanted to play with a human?......

wow talk about insecure

[PostmodernProphet]

wow talk about insecure

why "insecure"?....since you're the creature, not the created, you ought to have looked at the analogy and said "wow, talk about ungrateful"......the question was whether it was logical....if we were created, it is logical that we were created for a purpose.....

[PostmodernProphet]

Absolutely, that is always been one of my questions, why would it be needed, isn't worship required by those who have low self images?

or by those who's images warrant it.....

[PostmodernProphet]

Why would he need to do that?

because otherwise you would simply be a mindless robot.....and then you'd be like most of the other liberal posters here.....

[Topspin]

because otherwise you would simply be a mindless robot.....and then you'd be like most of the other liberal posters here.....

funny how the liberals tend to have more formal education than the nazi neocons. Not withstanding your high level of comic book comprehension.

[Damocles]

would you care if your dog stayed home only to sleep and eat, but went to the neighbor's house whenever he wanted to play with a human?......
Not particularly. It sounds like children to me.

Do you really take on a pet because you want worship?

[Topspin]

nice burn

[Cancel7]

wow talk about insecure

LMAO

My dog doesn't love me. This is great stuff.

I gotta get some work done. You guys are f'ing crazy man. My dog only uses me for food, he gives his love to the neighbors. Now I have heard it all.

[PostmodernProphet]

funny how the liberals tend to have more formal education than the nazi neocons. Not withstanding your high level of comic book comprehension.

would that be the urban blacks or the union members?......without those bastions of formal education, liberals would be limited to a handful of Ivy League college professors and the people who are allowed to run the Democratic Party.....

[PostmodernProphet]

Not particularly. It sounds like children to me.

Do you really take on a pet because you want worship?

I certainly don't take on a pet because I want him spending all his time at the neighbors......is the analogy that much beyond you?.....I'm disappointed.....

[PostmodernProphet]

nice burn

not even enough to ignite phosphorous...

[uscitizen]

Will there be dogs and pets in heaven?

[charver]

Will there be dogs and pets in heaven?

And what about insects?

I'd like bees to be there but not wasps.

[uscitizen]

And what about insects?

I'd like bees to be there but not wasps.

No mosquitoes!

[charver]

No mosquitoes!

That's fine with me.

We could do without tics as well, otherwise the heavenly version of JPP would feature an identical thread where angelic versions of ourselves all discuss the best way of removing angel tics from angel dogs.

[Damocles]

I certainly don't take on a pet because I want him spending all his time at the neighbors......is the analogy that much beyond you?.....I'm disappointed.....
The analogy sucks. The better analogy would be children, but even that one is poor. Do you have them because you can control them and make them worship you, or do you teach them to be what they can be and let them grow up?

If God has a father's love as it is expressed in the Bible, he doesn't seek worship, he wants his kids to do well. If God has the Compassion of a mother as Amida Buddha expresses, then God seeks for his children to learn to overcome suffering, again he wouldn't seek worship. If God indeed is seeking constant praise and adoration, and has aspects of human emotions as described in the Bible I would not say it is healthy or adult to seek that kind of affirmation from others.

It makes no sense that God would want unending worship, even if you buy pets because you want some approval you don't get from your kids you don't want the danged thing sitting constantly licking you in adoration.

[PostmodernProphet]

The analogy sucks. The better analogy would be children, but even that one is poor. Do you have them because you can control them and make them worship you, or do you teach them to be what they can be and let them grow up? .

okay....then how would you feel if your kids told their friends the neighbor was their father........

[Damocles]

okay....then how would you feel if your kids told their friends the neighbor was their father........
Again, a bad analogy. Not worshiping god =/= saying somebody else is their god that's silly. I might be upset if they truly just didn't believe in me, that would be kind of tough considering my actual physical proximity and the considerable effect that proximity holds over their lives.

A better analogy, since we're talking about some more specific god than I was before, would be an absentee father who simply had a one night stand then left the woman to fend for herself. Would he be insulted by them claiming a different man as their father? How would he ever know? Why would he care?

Then when you look at the distance this indefatigable god puts between his creation and himself. What would the need for worship be? Why would I want my kids to worship me? I don't even want them to always do what authority tells them to do, let alone do I want worship from them.

Let's take it further, what would you think of a man who created "Commandments" for his children, and if they didn't follow them would torture them? That in order to get anything from him you would need to form a psychic connection with him and even then he'd say no most of the time?

What if that man wrote books of rules on what you could or couldn't eat in order to remain "clean" before him, and if you ate the wrong ones you could have rocks thrown at you by the other kids? That on some specific day you had to meet with all surviving relatives and sing praises to him and have somebody read the rules again so that you could follow them better?

All of this is nonsense. Why would a god care what kind of meat you ate or whether you wore a blend of fabric?

It is illogical, IMO (as I said earlier), for any God to need this kind of thing.

[WinterBorn]

That's fine with me.

We could do without tics as well, otherwise the heavenly version of JPP would feature an identical thread where angelic versions of ourselves all discuss the best way of removing angel tics from angel dogs.

Angel ticks are easy. You just run a bit of wire thru their little halo and pull them out.

And in heaven, Guiness and chocolate are the two best antibiotics.

[PostmodernProphet]

Not worshiping god =/= saying somebody else is their god

I disagree.....all people worship something.....if not a deity, then themselves, an idea or power or money

[PostmodernProphet]

an absentee father who simply had a one night stand then left the woman to fend for herself.

it's not the father who left.....

[PostmodernProphet]

Let's take it further, what would you think of a man who created "Commandments" for his children, and if they didn't follow them would torture them?
I would think it sucked....but then I realize you've fucked up your understanding of the Christian religion again.....that ain't how it works....the Commandments aren't a standard to determine torture.....

[Damocles]

I disagree.....all people worship something.....if not a deity, then themselves, an idea or power or money
I disagree entirely. What you describe is only the first conclusion that Buddha came to before he found the path away from that. Desire begets suffering. You also confuse desire with worship.

[Damocles]

I would think it sucked....but then I realize you've fucked up your understanding of the Christian religion again.....that ain't how it works....the Commandments aren't a standard to determine torture.....
It doesn't matter, could God do that? My statement that it would be illogical for God to want you to worship isn't really based in any one religion.

What if, as a father, he let the rest of his kids throw rocks at a daughter who was pregnant before marriage? Your analogies suck because they do not actually express the relationship anybody has with an absent Deity who demands belief without evidence yet worship and praise. Why would the ultimate being need "praise". Praise is what you do to train your dog to poop in the back yard, not something you do to the ultimate being.

Again, you are getting specific while I am being more general. It makes no sense that any God would do that. The magical determination of eternal torture for your particular Deity would be to simply not believe in His Boy. By this standard the vast majority of humanity will burn in eternal Hell fires.

I personally believe in a Deity, mine however is nothing like yours and worship would be redundant.

[PostmodernProphet]

I disagree entirely. What you describe is only the first conclusion that Buddha came to before he found the path away from that. Desire begets suffering. You also confuse desire with worship.

it's only a matter of degree....
1.a. The reverent love and devotion accorded a deity, an idol, or a sacred object.

anything can become an idol.....money, power, modernists are prone to creating idols....it shows in their penchant to capitalize....Big Business, Science, Humanity!

[PostmodernProphet]

It doesn't matter, could God do that? My statement that it would be illogical for God to want you to worship isn't really based in any one religion.

What if, as a father, he let the rest of his kids throw rocks at a daughter who was pregnant before marriage? Your analogies suck because they do not actually express the relationship anybody has with an absent Deity who demands belief without evidence yet worship and praise. Why would the ultimate being need "praise". Praise is what you do to train your dog to poop in the back yard, not something you do to the ultimate being.

Again, you are getting specific while I am being more general. It makes no sense that any God would do that. The magical determination of eternal torture for your particular Deity would be to simply not believe in His Boy. By this standard the vast majority of humanity will burn in eternal Hell fires.

I personally believe in a Deity, mine however is nothing like yours and worship would be redundant.

you've strung together so many errors, I don't even know where to begin....
first, let's finish with the eternal torture error....you said

The magical determination of eternal torture for your particular Deity would be to simply not believe in His Boy. By this standard the vast majority of humanity will burn in eternal Hell fires.
1) there is no logical reason to conclude that the vast majority of humanity will not choose to believe, and 2) the only ones who do are those who freely made that choice for themselves.....the choice and the consequences of the choice are clear....why are you complaining that there are consequences for the choice when it's their free choice to take the consequences?.....

[Damocles]

it's only a matter of degree....
1.a. The reverent love and devotion accorded a deity, an idol, or a sacred object.

anything can become an idol.....money, power, modernists are prone to creating idols....it shows in their penchant to capitalize....Big Business, Science, Humanity!
Anything can become an idol, but not everybody worships something. I disagree with that statement specifically.

[Damocles]

you've strung together so many errors, I don't even know where to begin....
first, let's finish with the eternal torture error....you said

1) there is no logical reason to conclude that the vast majority of humanity will not choose to believe, and 2) the only ones who do are those who freely made that choice for themselves.....the choice and the consequences of the choice are clear....why are you complaining that there are consequences for the choice when it's their free choice to take the consequences?.....
No, I was demonstrating the poor equivalence of your analogies. If a father did the things your Deity does they would be labeled criminals and severally suffer for their crimes. He is a Deity, and you are trying to explain why he would demand praise and worship in some logical fashion.

No sane father, whether the kids go next door and claim another man to be "Daddy" would torment the kids forever for it, and it wouldn't make it less of a crime if he warned them they better believe in him and worship him or he would torture them. Nor does any father expect worship and praise, and if they do they are ill equipped for fatherhood.

And also, logic determines that since there are a bit more than 6 Billion people, and only 2 Billion of them believe in your Deity's boy, the vast majority of the world will burn in Hell.

[Dixie - In Memoriam]

No, I was demonstrating the poor equivalence of your analogies. If a father did the things your Deity does they would be labeled criminals and severally suffer for their crimes. He is a Deity, and you are trying to explain why he would demand praise and worship in some logical fashion.

No sane father, whether the kids go next door and claim another man to be "Daddy" would torment the kids forever for it, and it wouldn't make it less of a crime if he warned them they better believe in him and worship him or he would torture them. Nor does any father expect worship and praise, and if they do they are ill equipped for fatherhood.

The point you seem to be overlooking, and PMP may be as well, is that "God" doesn't have emotional feelings that humans possess. That is an attribute WE have, WE want to be liked, WE expect to be 'worshiped' and WE think that it's important in the Big Picture. God the Deity doesn't give one rip if you worship Him or not, he couldn't care less because He is not a human with human emotions and attributes. He is not vain, He doesn't require validation, He would have no apparent reason to "need" those things. Likewise, God doesn't have "compassion" because, again, this is a human attribute, and God is a Deity. It doesn't "bother" him to destroy every living thing on the planet because he doesn't feel "remorse" or "guilt" as humans do. Often we hear anti-Godders say... Why does your God let the little children die? Well, it's because he doesn't care, because "caring" is a human attribute. We tend to want to prescribe human attributes and emotions to God, as if He were a human being, and that is silly and impractical.

I have to disagree with something you said earlier as well, you maintain that everyone doesn't worship something, and whether you realize it or not, that is patently false. We all have a human inclination to worship something greater than self, and this has been apparent in mankind for as long as mankind has existed. A noted psychologist once observed, if God didn't exist, man would have to create one. It is part of our hard-wired psyche to worship something, whether it is ourselves, nature, God, Allah, little green men that only we can see, science, Micheal Jackson, or a political party! And "worship" can be a subjective term... just because we don't define what we do as "worshiping" doesn't mean that isn't what we are doing in practice. But all humans have this instinctual inclination to 'worship' something, it's part of who we are as humans, and ironically, what distinguishes us from the rest of the animal kingdom.

[Damocles]

The point you seem to be overlooking, and PMP may be as well, is that "God" doesn't have emotional feelings that humans possess. That is an attribute WE have, WE want to be liked, WE expect to be 'worshiped' and WE think that it's important in the Big Picture. God the Deity doesn't give one rip if you worship Him or not, he couldn't care less because He is not a human with human emotions and attributes. He is not vain, He doesn't require validation, He would have no apparent reason to "need" those things. Likewise, God doesn't have "compassion" because, again, this is a human attribute, and God is a Deity. It doesn't "bother" him to destroy every living thing on the planet because he doesn't feel "remorse" or "guilt" as humans do. Often we hear anti-Godders say... Why does your God let the little children die? Well, it's because he doesn't care, because "caring" is a human attribute. We tend to want to prescribe human attributes and emotions to God, as if He were a human being, and that is silly and impractical.

I have to disagree with something you said earlier as well, you maintain that everyone doesn't worship something, and whether you realize it or not, that is patently false. We all have a human inclination to worship something greater than self, and this has been apparent in mankind for as long as mankind has existed. A noted psychologist once observed, if God didn't exist, man would have to create one. It is part of our hard-wired psyche to worship something, whether it is ourselves, nature, God, Allah, little green men that only we can see, science, Micheal Jackson, or a political party! And "worship" can be a subjective term... just because we don't define what we do as "worshiping" doesn't mean that isn't what we are doing in practice. But all humans have this instinctual inclination to 'worship' something, it's part of who we are as humans, and ironically, what distinguishes us from the rest of the animal kingdom.
Again I will still disagree with your assessment. While mankind may have the inclination to believe in what they cannot see (needed it to avoid predation, you must believe that something is hiding in the bush, even if you don't have much evidence), it does not mean that they always fall for this inclination.

I believe that you too have mistaken desire for worship. While some people who liked Michael Jackson for instance may have brought it to the level of worship, the vast majority of them never did. Not everybody worships something. The "thing larger than me" that I believe in seeks no worship, nor praise and cares nothing for your attempt at psychic communication with it.

We are all connected, each life its own piece of that "thing larger than myself". I don't worship God, because it is worthless to do so. Deists would be another group who wouldn't worship God, because God doesn't care. Belief in something "larger than yourself" does not necessarily equate to worship.

[Dixie - In Memoriam]

Again I will still disagree with your assessment. While mankind may have the inclination to believe in what they cannot see (needed it to avoid predation, you must believe that something is hiding in the bush, even if you don't have much evidence), it does not mean that they always fall for this inclination.

I believe that you too have mistaken desire for worship. While some people who liked Michael Jackson for instance may have brought it to the level of worship, the vast majority of them never did. Not everybody worships something. The "thing larger than me" that I believe in seeks no worship, nor praise and cares nothing for your attempt at psychic communication with it.

We are all connected, each life its own piece of that "thing larger than myself". I don't worship God, because it is worthless to do so. Deists would be another group who wouldn't worship God, because God doesn't care. Belief in something "larger than yourself" does not necessarily equate to worship.

Whoa, hold on... I never said a thing about it "requiring" you to worship or "seeking" worship, did I? Nope... in fact, I went way outta my way to explain why "God" wouldn't have such a requirement. I also said that "worship" is a subjective term, you do understand what "subjective" means, right? Because you don't call what you do "worship" doesn't mean that it's not, it's just not considered "worship" by you. However, as you admit, you do "believe" in something greater than self, all humans do "believe" in something... it's what makes us uniquely different from the apes and chimps.

[PostmodernProphet]

If a father did the things your Deity does

and I am merely pointing out that my deity doesn't do the things you said he does....

[PostmodernProphet]

No sane father, whether the kids go next door and claim another man to be "Daddy" would torment the kids forever for it, and it wouldn't make it less of a crime if he warned them they better believe in him and worship him or he would torture them.
I consider it logical....if the kids go next door and claim the other man to be "daddy" they should expect to go spend eternity with him and not be upset because the other guy they rejected doesn't let them join him in paradise.....it's their freely made choice....eternity may suck, but it's the eternity they chose....
I always say, if you're going to make your own god you better be prepared to make your own paradise as well.....

[Cypress]

Does a new born child belive in a god or deity?

I have no idea what I was thinking when I was two days old. But, it probably had something to do with an obsession with breasts.


And, really, I haven't changed that much in that regard.... :o

[Damocles]

and I am merely pointing out that my deity doesn't do the things you said he does....
But he does, considering the only statement that I made about your deity is that he will throw people into Hell if they don't believe in His boy. The rest of my statements are examples of rules that were placed upon people by deities throughout the ages and actions allowed to take place in the name of those deities.

[Damocles]

I consider it logical....if the kids go next door and claim the other man to be "daddy" they should expect to go spend eternity with him and not be upset because the other guy they rejected doesn't let them join him in paradise.....it's their freely made choice....eternity may suck, but it's the eternity they chose....
I always say, if you're going to make your own god you better be prepared to make your own paradise as well.....
I don't particularly think that would be logical. It is emotive, not logical.

And again, that does little to tell me why a Deity who is All Powerful would need or expect any worship, or even to have you believe in it.

[PostmodernProphet]

I don't particularly think that would be logical. It is emotive, not logical.

And again, that does little to tell me why a Deity who is All Powerful would need or expect any worship, or even to have you believe in it.

how many options are there.....a deity who creates a universe by accident and walks on down the street leaving it lay on the sidewalk?.....a deity who creates a universe to serve as a snowglobe?, shaking it from time to time?.....a deity who creates a universe as a scientific experiment (are we the control group or is his thesis that if you flip this switch in the DNA the little buggers will really fuck things up).....my belief is, a deity who created a situation in which you can identify those that choose to believe out of nothing more than love......

[Blackwater Lunchbreak]

how many options are there.....a deity who creates a universe by accident and walks on down the street leaving it lay on the sidewalk?.....a deity who creates a universe to serve as a snowglobe?, shaking it from time to time?.....a deity who creates a universe as a scientific experiment (are we the control group or is his thesis that if you flip this switch in the DNA the little buggers will really fuck things up).....my belief is, a deity who created a situation in which you can identify those that choose to believe out of nothing more than love......

But there is love without god. In fact, god likes hate and racial supremacism according to the old testament.

[PostmodernProphet]

But there is love without god. In fact, god likes hate and racial supremacism according to the old testament.

we're talking about worship.....I am referring to a love of God.....the rest of your post is nothing more than a recital of your general level of ignorance....

[Blackwater Lunchbreak]

we're talking about worship.....I am referring to a love of God.....the rest of your post is nothing more than a recital of your general level of ignorance....

What has god done for you lately?

You see those foot prints back there? Where yours stop and you can see god left you there and was drinking beer and playing volleyball with hot babes? Look at the real evidence, CSI.

[PostmodernProphet]

What has god done for you lately?



he's given me the patience to continue responding to your posts....

[Damocles]

how many options are there.....a deity who creates a universe by accident and walks on down the street leaving it lay on the sidewalk?.....a deity who creates a universe to serve as a snowglobe?, shaking it from time to time?.....a deity who creates a universe as a scientific experiment (are we the control group or is his thesis that if you flip this switch in the DNA the little buggers will really fuck things up).....my belief is, a deity who created a situation in which you can identify those that choose to believe out of nothing more than love......
You keep anthropomorphizing and adding to this Deity human emotions and drives that would not exist within a being that lives for eternity and has no limits to its powers. Why would such a being care if you believed in it? It wouldn't diminish it in any way whatsoever.

[PostmodernProphet]

You keep anthropomorphizing and adding to this Deity human emotions and drives that would not exist within a being that lives for eternity and has no limits to its powers. Why would such a being care if you believed in it? It wouldn't diminish it in any way whatsoever.

look, I'm not adding anything....if the scriptures have any purpose whatsoever, it is to communicate him to us...(putting aside questions of believing in either for the sake of argument)......and what is communicated is that he does, regardless of why....

Mark 12:28One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, "Of all the commandments, which is the most important?"

29"The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one.[e] 30Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.'[f] 31The second is this: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'[g]There is no commandment greater than these."

and this was not a new message...
Deuteronomy 6:4Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:

5And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.

[Minister of Truth]

What has god done for you lately?

You see those foot prints back there? Where yours stop and you can see god left you there and was drinking beer and playing volleyball with hot babes? Look at the real evidence, CSI.

You want to conduct a crime scene investigation? Seriously, WTF????

The real question, Asshate, is what has ur mom done for you lately?

[Damocles]

look, I'm not adding anything....if the scriptures have any purpose whatsoever, it is to communicate him to us...(putting aside questions of believing in either for the sake of argument)......and what is communicated is that he does, regardless of why....

Mark 12:28One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, "Of all the commandments, which is the most important?"

29"The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one.[e] 30Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.'[f] 31The second is this: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'[g]There is no commandment greater than these."

and this was not a new message...
Deuteronomy 6:4Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:

5And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.
Ah, I see. Again with the "Because God said so." argument.

This is a logical fallacy, I've even pointed it out to you before.

It seems more logical that humans wrote the Bible to add God into history and that less advanced humans anthropomorphized than it does that an all-powerful being has issues with its self-esteem.

[PostmodernProphet]

Ah, I see. Again with the "Because God said so." argument.

This is a logical fallacy, I've even pointed it out to you before.

It seems more logical that humans wrote the Bible to add God into history and that less advanced humans anthropomorphized than it does that an all-powerful being has issues with its self-esteem.

I love the way these debates always go. It's okay to use scriptures to prove that God orders rape or genocide, but you can't use the scriptures to tell us what he really wants because we can't believe what the scriptures say. If you want to assume God exists for the sake of argument, you can't eliminate part of the formula to win it.....

[Damocles]

I love the way these debates always go. It's okay to use scriptures to prove that God orders rape or genocide, but you can't use the scriptures to tell us what he really wants because we can't believe what the scriptures say. If you want to assume God exists for the sake of argument, you can't eliminate part of the formula to win it.....
The thing of it is, my argument isn't specific to this particular Deity and I need no proof that God exists. I believe in God differently than you do, but I believe in a God.

What I want is a logical reason for why an all powerful Deity would need constant attention and affirmation consistent with worship.

"The Bible says so." <- This is not a logical reason for such a need.

And as I said before, I think it is far more likely that the Israelites won a war then attributed their actions after the fact to what God ordered than it is that God actually ordered the genocide and capturing of those virgins.

In short, I did the exact opposite of what you are saying here. When I applied logic I was able to come up with a different scenario than "God ordered this" and one that is IMO far more logical. So far the only person who says it is logical to say, "Because the Bible says so." is you. And I have pointed out to you that this is a logical fallacy.

It's like a child who says that he knows more about injury because his mother is a Nurse.

[uscitizen]

I decided long ago that God must be very insecure.
He always seems to need money as well.

[PostmodernProphet]

The thing of it is, my argument isn't specific to this particular Deity and I need no proof that God exists. I believe in God differently than you do, but I believe in a God.

What I want is a logical reason for why an all powerful Deity would need constant attention and affirmation consistent with worship.

"The Bible says so." <- This is not a logical reason for such a need.

And as I said before, I think it is far more likely that the Israelites won a war then attributed their actions after the fact to what God ordered than it is that God actually ordered the genocide and capturing of those virgins.

In short, I did the exact opposite of what you are saying here. When I applied logic I was able to come up with a different scenario than "God ordered this" and one that is IMO far more logical. So far the only person who says it is logical to say, "Because the Bible says so." is you. And I have pointed out to you that this is a logical fallacy.

It's like a child who says that he knows more about injury because his mother is a Nurse.
in a debate regarding religions that have a deity who desires to be worshipped you pretty much have to be selective.....something like 97% of the people on earth are either atheist/agnostic or follow the six major religions.....three of those don't have deities that even communicate with the universe....the Hind believe the entire universe is the deity, the Buddhists and Taoists believe that we become the deity.....the other three, Christianity, Islam and Judaism all worship the same deity, YHWH....the religious texts of all three say the same thing on this issue....

we've discussed a variety of logical reasons why a deity would demand worship....the fact that you don't accept any of them doesn't mean they aren't there.....and the fact you don't want to look at what the religious texts say on the issue does not make them illogical....

I think the simplest makes the most sense....because it is the easiest way to identify a group of people who want to love the deity because they want to love the deity.....not because they have no other choice, not because of fear, but simply because they want to....

when I look at your analogy, I see you in the role you attribute to me.....you block out what Mom says, denying she can even talk, and make your own decisions on the care needed....(that's why mom loves me best).....

[Damocles]

in a debate regarding religions that have a deity who desires to be worshipped you pretty much have to be selective.....something like 97% of the people on earth are either atheist/agnostic or follow the six major religions.....three of those don't have deities that even communicate with the universe....the Hind believe the entire universe is the deity, the Buddhists and Taoists believe that we become the deity.....the other three, Christianity, Islam and Judaism all worship the same deity, YHWH....the religious texts of all three say the same thing on this issue....

we've discussed a variety of logical reasons why a deity would demand worship....the fact that you don't accept any of them doesn't mean they aren't there.....and the fact you don't want to look at what the religious texts say on the issue does not make them illogical....

I think the simplest makes the most sense....because it is the easiest way to identify a group of people who want to love the deity because they want to love the deity.....not because they have no other choice, not because of fear, but simply because they want to....

when I look at your analogy, I see you in the role you attribute to me.....you block out what Mom says, denying she can even talk, and make your own decisions on the care needed....(that's why mom loves me best).....
It isn't that I don't accept the reasons, I just don't accept that they are logical. I understand that god requests his daily affirmation, but I don't pretend that it is logical therefore.

Again, the net total of your argument is "Because He says so!"

Saying that is logical can only happen if you ignore the actual definition of logical.

And this totally ignores the "Prodigal Son" story of the Bible, your analogy even goes against what the danged Deity said.

[PostmodernProphet]

And this totally ignores the "Prodigal Son" story of the Bible, your analogy even goes against what the danged Deity said.

???...how so....the prodigal son finally recognized that things hadn't been so bad at home and returned.....the father accepted him back with love....how does that go against my analogy?.....

[Damocles]

???...how so....the prodigal son finally recognized that things hadn't been so bad at home and returned.....the father accepted him back with love....how does that go against my analogy?.....
The Prodigal son "returned" to a party that the son who remained never would get. The one who got the most from the Deity is the one who left, not the group that "loved him because they wanted to love him".

Anyway, "It's in the scriptures" is not a logical argument, nor is the extension of it, "The Bible says he does this and therefore it is true."

Neither one of these are a logical argument, it is an argument of faith and not logic.

There is no logical reason for such a Deity to act as he does in the Bible, other than the extension where humans anthropomorphized the deity. As a matter of faith you are well-documented, as a matter of logic, you have yet to offer any logical argument.

So far your argument has been, "Well, I'd feel mad if my dog played with the neighbor." "Well, it says in the Bible he gets mad." and "If my kid went next door and claimed the man there to be daddy, I'd be willing to send him to hell for eternity because he chose not to love me and I warned him, so why wouldn't God be willing to do that."

None of these are logical arguments all of them are arguments from faith.

And lastly, most of the people in that chosen group did not "choose" anything. They were simply the beneficiaries of the lucky-sperm club. Unless they were born of the same sperm from a servant and became Arabs.

[PostmodernProphet]

None of these are logical arguments all of them are arguments from faith.
.

I think we are experiencing a turn around here.....there are issues of faith/logic with respect to what I choose to believe about God, but that isn't the issue we are discussing.....

we are discussing the deity's motivation for taking a particular act.....his action wouldn't be based upon faith, either his or mine....

you say the deity's action is illogical.....how so....would it not be logical for a father to choose to not favor a child who refused to acknowledge his very existence?.....if I have a client who comes in to write a will and he says "I choose to leave nothing to my second son because he has not come to see me in thirty years" do I say that isn't logical, you should leave him an equal share anyway?.....

[PostmodernProphet]

The Prodigal son "returned" to a party that the son who remained never would get. The one who got the most from the Deity is the one who left, not the group that "loved him because they wanted to love him".
but the prodigal son didn't get the most....

Luke 15: 28"The older brother became angry and refused to go in. So his father went out and pleaded with him. 29But he answered his father, 'Look! All these years I've been slaving for you and never disobeyed your orders. Yet you never gave me even a young goat so I could celebrate with my friends. 30But when this son of yours who has squandered your property with prostitutes comes home, you kill the fattened calf for him!'

31" 'My son,' the father said, 'you are always with me, and everything I have is yours. 32But we had to celebrate and be glad, because this brother of yours was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.' "

[Minister of Truth]

I decided long ago that God must be very insecure.
He always seems to need money as well.

Is it insecure to want to be loved?

[Damocles]

but the prodigal son didn't get the most....

Luke 15: 28"The older brother became angry and refused to go in. So his father went out and pleaded with him. 29But he answered his father, 'Look! All these years I've been slaving for you and never disobeyed your orders. Yet you never gave me even a young goat so I could celebrate with my friends. 30But when this son of yours who has squandered your property with prostitutes comes home, you kill the fattened calf for him!'

31" 'My son,' the father said, 'you are always with me, and everything I have is yours. 32But we had to celebrate and be glad, because this brother of yours was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.' "
This is silliness. I bring up the story because the dude was not severally punished like in your first instance and your answer is, "He didn't get the most!"

Ugh. You keep moving the bar and stupidly so...

The story of the Prodigal son was only brought up as an aside pointing out your black/white inanity of your poor analogy.

I will say it one more time slowly for you.

"The Bible says so." Is in no way a logical argument at any moment in time. It does nothing to advance your claim that any God has a logical reason to want constant affirmation and praise. It is as logical as bringing up the demands of Zeus, or Odin, or any other Pagan entity. While you may believe it is Truth (and I fully respect you for that), it is not an argument from logic, it is 100% an argument from Faith.

"This is The One True God and his Bible says so it must be logical" will never be a logical argument, it hasn't been yet, it will not be throughout the rest of your life, it is based in Faith only.

[PostmodernProphet]

This is silliness. I bring up the story because the dude was not severally punished like in your first instance and your answer is, "He didn't get the most!"


dude!.....first of all, the prodigal son isn't an example of my first instance....it's an example of the opposite....the prodigal son came back....second, the only reason I referred to the most was your statement "The one who got the most from the Deity is the one who left"....the statement wasn't true, so I pointed it out.....



The story of the Prodigal son was only brought up as an aside pointing out your black/white inanity of your poor analogy.

then it was a major fail on your point.....it reinforced my point instead of contradicting it....



"The Bible says so." Is in no way a logical argument at any moment in time.
/sigh....dude, you're out in left field counting dandelions in the middle of a game....."The Bible says so" isn't my logical argument... God's reason isn't "the Bible said so"....I'm not arguing that you need to believe it because the Bible says it.....the only reason "the bible says so" even got into this conversation was my comment that whatever his reasons, the bible stated that God demanded worship.....

[Damocles]

dude!.....first of all, the prodigal son isn't an example of my first instance....it's an example of the opposite....the prodigal son came back....second, the only reason I referred to the most was your statement "The one who got the most from the Deity is the one who left"....the statement wasn't true, so I pointed it out.....



then it was a major fail on your point.....it reinforced my point instead of contradicting it....


/sigh....dude, you're out in left field counting dandelions in the middle of a game....."The Bible says so" isn't my logical argument... God's reason isn't "the Bible said so"....I'm not arguing that you need to believe it because the Bible says it.....the only reason "the bible says so" even got into this conversation was my comment that whatever his reasons, the bible stated that God demanded worship.....
One more time. As he left he got his inheritance, not a swift kick into a fiery pit, it is not an example of your "point", it is opposite to it. And it still isn't an instance of logical information. At best it shows an emotive, not a rational reason for a Deity to want that kind of stuff, or even to play the lucky sperm game with one group.

In the Prodigal son, the one who left had already gotten his inheritance, saying that the other son gets what is left is still only his portion "He gets more" is not an example of your story. In that one the Father did not act like God who will simply put you into the pit.

[Damocles]

You keep mistaking, "God said so!" for reason. It isn't logic to keep repeating another story from the Bible any more than it would be for me to keep repeating stories from Greek Mythology, or Zoroastrianism, or any other Faith. Seriously. "God wants praise because if He doesn't get it he'll come down as a cow and sleep with your mom and make you into a minotaur"... We know he will because we read the story.

No matter how many times you try to use it as a "logical reason" for a Deity to want constant affirmation and praise it will not suddenly become a logical argument to say, "God told me so." It is always, and will always be, a story of Faith, not of logic.

[PostmodernProphet]

It isn't logic to keep repeating another story from the Bible any more than it would be for me to keep repeating stories from Greek Mythology, or Zoroastrianism, or any other Faith.
uh, dude....I didnt' bring up any stories from the Bible.....you did....I'm the guy with the dog and the kid living with the neighbor, remember?.....



No matter how many times you try to use it as a "logical reason" for a Deity to want constant affirmation and praise it will not suddenly become a logical argument to say, "God told me so." It is always, and will always be, a story of Faith, not of logic.

/shakes his head....do me a favor.....link me to the post where you think I used "God told me so" as a logical argument.....you are waaaaaaaay out in left field on this.....

[Damocles]

uh, dude....I didnt' bring up any stories from the Bible.....you did....I'm the guy with the dog and the kid living with the neighbor, remember?.....



/shakes his head....do me a favor.....link me to the post where you think I used "God told me so" as a logical argument.....you are waaaaaaaay out in left field on this.....

So you are saying you have not used any bible verses in this discussion of ours, now throughout several threads? That is what I refer to as "God told me so." You even defended it, upset that I would point out that Bible stories are not logic, upset that you couldn't use Bible verses in your analogies.

[Damocles]

Whoa, hold on... I never said a thing about it "requiring" you to worship or "seeking" worship, did I? Nope... in fact, I went way outta my way to explain why "God" wouldn't have such a requirement. I also said that "worship" is a subjective term, you do understand what "subjective" means, right? Because you don't call what you do "worship" doesn't mean that it's not, it's just not considered "worship" by you. However, as you admit, you do "believe" in something greater than self, all humans do "believe" in something... it's what makes us uniquely different from the apes and chimps.
Then you aren't participating in this conversation and have simply buttressed my argument. I am speaking of worship in the way that you read about it in the Bible, the Torah, the Q'uran... What reason would such a deity need constant devotions, and why would a being that knows everything require the psychic communication with it that is called prayer?

[PostmodernProphet]

So you are saying you have not used any bible verses in this discussion of ours, now throughout several threads? That is what I refer to as "God told me so." You even defended it, upset that I would point out that Bible stories are not logic, upset that you couldn't use Bible verses in your analogies.

I am saying I did not use any Bible verses as a "the bible tells me so" substitute for a logical argument.....that's a lot different from examining the bible to see what it says about a matter in question....especially when the matter in question is something the bible is specifically about, like YHWH......

[PostmodernProphet]

Then you aren't participating in this conversation and have simply buttressed my argument. I am speaking of worship in the way that you read about it in the Bible, the Torah, the Q'uran... What reason would such a deity need constant devotions, and why would a being that knows everything require the psychic communication with it that is called prayer?

wait a minute.....what are you saying worship is?......like 24/7 prayer?....where do you even find an example of that in the Bible......look at Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden....he stopped by and talked to them.......

[Damocles]

wait a minute.....what are you saying worship is?......like 24/7 prayer?....where do you even find an example of that in the Bible......look at Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden....he stopped by and talked to them.......
No, I am not saying that worship is 24/7 prayer, try again, this is a form of the reductionism fallacy called a straw man. (And BTW, I see you using scripture again...)

Worship is the constant affirmation of the greatness of God, prayer is the communication you have with Him. And God doesn't do the direct thing any longer and hasn't since Genesis, because man became too corrupted and He could no longer abide them. All communication (until Christ) was always through other means, burning bushes, etc. Or simply direct psychic communication.

My question was why would an all-knowing God need prayer to be told of your needs?

[Minister of Truth]

No, I am not saying that worship is 24/7 prayer, try again, this is a form of the reductionism fallacy called a straw man. (And BTW, I see you using scripture again...)

Worship is the constant affirmation of the greatness of God, prayer is the communication you have with Him. And God doesn't do the direct thing any longer and hasn't since Genesis, because man became too corrupted and He could no longer abide them. All communication (until Christ) was always through other means, burning bushes, etc. Or simply direct psychic communication.

My question was why would an all-knowing God need prayer to be told of your needs?

Because otherwise you get lazy and uncaring.

[Damocles]

Because otherwise you get lazy and uncaring.
How would psychic communication where no direct answers are possible make me any less lazy?

[Minister of Truth]

How would psychic communication where no direct answers are possible make me any less lazy?

You stop praying and worshipping, and soon you start taking everything for granted and ignoring your faith.

Its like people who hit the gym up for a month and then stop going...

[PostmodernProphet]

No, I am not saying that worship is 24/7 prayer, try again, this is a form of the reductionism fallacy called a straw man. (And BTW, I see you using scripture again...)


poor thing....how will you ever cope.....



My question was why would an all-knowing God need prayer to be told of your needs?
he doesn't.....why shouldn't he expect us to communicate if we want something....

[Damocles]

You stop praying and worshipping, and soon you start taking everything for granted and ignoring your faith.

Its like people who hit the gym up for a month and then stop going...
I see, this is somewhat logical, but why would god care if you were "lazy" in worship? This continues back to why would god want you to worship him at all? Why would God need or want the constant affirmation? My faith "muscle" notwithstanding, why would god care if you believed at all?

[Damocles]

poor thing....how will you ever cope.....


he doesn't.....why shouldn't he expect us to communicate if we want something....
Again, you answer a direct question with another question rather than producing logic. Threedee is already kicking your behind in that arena.

Why would God find it necessary, it already knows, it is just redundancy so that you can practice your psychic communication?

[Minister of Truth]

I see, this is somewhat logical, but why would god care if you were "lazy" in worship? This continues back to why would god want you to worship him at all? Why would God need or want the constant affirmation? My faith "muscle" notwithstanding, why would god care if you believed at all?

Same principles apply to people. Couples get irritated when the partner gets cheap and distant, even if the neglectful partner still thinks they love they other deeply.

I'm one of those old fashioned Catholics who likes to downplay emotion and talk philosophy, but in truth, it really does just come down to love, which must be expressed and shown in good faith. Otherwise the whole experiment of creating life has no point.

[PostmodernProphet]

Again, you answer a direct question with another question rather than producing logic. Threedee is already kicking your behind in that arena.


/sigh....then I'm going to quit....apparently you don't like the way I communicate.....I can't debate if I have to conform to your rules....

[Damocles]

Same principles apply to people. Couples get irritated when the partner gets cheap and distant, even if the neglectful partner still thinks they love they other deeply.

I'm one of those old fashioned Catholics who likes to downplay emotion and talk philosophy, but in truth, it really does just come down to love, which must be expressed and shown in good faith. Otherwise the whole experiment of creating life has no point.
Now you are anthropomorphizing and assuming the God of the bible is the only possible Deity to include in this conversation and we must assume that all we are told about him is true, and because of this have lost the logic of the argument and crossed into faith.

You base your picture of the deity off of the Bible and assume therefore this Deity "loves" us, and I understand that, but "god loves you because the bible says so" is not an argument of logic. This has become an argument of faith rather than reason. Further extending this idea you then bring out analogies of family. There is nothing that tells me that the Deity would think of his creation as anything more than toys, or "things", maybe even a piece of art.

[Damocles]

/sigh....then I'm going to quit....apparently you don't like the way I communicate.....I can't debate if I have to conform to your rules....
Simply answering questions rather than constantly trying to lead with another question would be a good start.

[Damocles]

Of course this whole conversation began with my simple statement that it is my opinion that it is illogical for any all-powerful being to want worship and require belief.

This doesn't mean that it can't be true, it is a matter of Faith. I support your right and do not argue against your belief, I simply support and affirm my opinion.