Quick Introduction (from Europe)

[PES Activist]

Hi everyone - I hope you don't mind a European intruding on a US politics website, but with all the current interest being shown in EU-US relations I thought it would be good to find a way of entering into a dialogue with people from the US.

I've looked around for a forum that doesn't have the usual crazies, and which appears to be a place for informed debate. This forum looks like it fits the bill!

Just a little about myself. I am active in the Irish Labour Party in Dublin which is a constituent party of the Party of European Socialists (PES) along with the British Labour Party, the French Parti Socialiste and the German Sozialdemokratische Partei Deutschlands (SPD) along with other socialist, social democratic and labour parties across the European Union.

My career background is in the global telecommunications industry and I have worked with US corporate customers for many years, including spending quite a bit of time in NYC, Washington and New Jersey.

I'm interested in what the changes that are taking place across our shared world mean for the transatlantic relationship between the EU and the US, and am hoping to contribute to the shared understanding that is so vital to a continuing positive partnership between Europeans and Americans.

[Damocles]

Welcome to the board. I believe you are the first from Ireland, we have a couple from the UK, one from Australia, and I believe that one is from France, but am not 100% positive of that.

I have tried to make a forum that would be comfortable for the rest of the world as well, hence the Magna Carta rather than a US flag as a banner.

Join in, enjoy yourself.

I also work in telephony, but only nationally.

[PES Activist]

Thanks for the welcome, Damocles. I'm afraid I didn't recognise the Magna Carta banner, it doesn't mean that much to us here in Ireland! Maybe you could try the Déclaration des Droits de l'Homme et du Citoyen! :)

Once again, thanks for the welcome.

[Damocles]

I forgot the Canadian. Probably on purpose. :D

[FUCK THE POLICE]

Pffff.

I support the Progressive Democrats.

[PES Activist]

Hi Watermark - you'll need to be quick about the PD's as it is anticipated that they will be folding up their tent within the next six months. Their parliamentary strength collapsed at the last General Election in Ireland and they have been haemorrhaging members ever since. It seems that the Irish people have had their fill of pseudo-neoliberalism :)

[uscitizen]

Hi there. I worked with ATT transoceanic a bit.

Bus now into US domestic telecom.

[Diuretic]

I've used a telephone. Badly.

[FUCK THE POLICE]

Hi Watermark - you'll need to be quick about the PD's as it is anticipated that they will be folding up their tent within the next six months. Their parliamentary strength collapsed at the last General Election in Ireland and they have been haemorrhaging members ever since. It seems that the Irish people have had their fill of pseudo-neoliberalism :)

Pseudo-neoliberalism, pseudo-intellectualism, it all goes together. I'd probably vote Labour or Green then. My distaste for the right everywhere in the world grows daily.

BTW, Is anyone in the Irish system pro-choice?

[PES Activist]

BTW, Is anyone in the Irish system pro-choice?

Hi Watermark - good question. None of the parties, either in the Irish Republic or in Northern Ireland, are pro-choice in the sense of supporting access by women to abortion on broadly the same lines as we have across the EU or you have in the US.

In the Republic there is a constitutional prohibition on abortion except where the woman's life or health is threatened. In Northern Ireland abortion remains prohibited by the Offences against the Person Act because the UK Abortion Act has never been extended to cover Northern Ireland. In practice this means that abortions are not performed in Ireland and women seeking a termination travel to Britain or the European continent (France and the Netherlands mainly).

The closest any of the parties gets to supporting abortion, in very limited circumstances, is my own party, the Labour Party. Recent Supreme Court decisions have reduced the dogmatic nature of the constitutional ban and abortion is constitutional in certain very limited situations, e.g. threat of suicide or foetal abnormality. However, only the Labour Party has campaigned to have the decisions of the Supreme Court translated into legislation. In the absence of legislative guidance no hospital or doctor will perform abortions in Ireland even on the Supreme Court's terms and as a consequence the Court's interpretation has not been given wider practical effect.

I hope that explains the situation here in Ireland.

[Minister of Truth]

The closest any of the parties gets to supporting abortion, in very limited circumstances, is my own party, the Labour Party. Recent Supreme Court decisions have reduced the dogmatic nature of the constitutional ban and abortion is constitutional in certain very limited situations, e.g. threat of suicide or foetal abnormality. However, only the Labour Party has campaigned to have the decisions of the Supreme Court translated into legislation. In the absence of legislative guidance no hospital or doctor will perform abortions in Ireland even on the Supreme Court's terms and as a consequence the Court's interpretation has not been given wider practical effect.

So, you're party is the least Catholic? :pke:

[Damocles]

Hi Watermark - good question. None of the parties, either in the Irish Republic or in Northern Ireland, are pro-choice in the sense of supporting access by women to abortion on broadly the same lines as we have across the EU or you have in the US.

In the Republic there is a constitutional prohibition on abortion except where the woman's life or health is threatened. In Northern Ireland abortion remains prohibited by the Offences against the Person Act because the UK Abortion Act has never been extended to cover Northern Ireland. In practice this means that abortions are not performed in Ireland and women seeking a termination travel to Britain or the European continent (France and the Netherlands mainly).

The closest any of the parties gets to supporting abortion, in very limited circumstances, is my own party, the Labour Party. Recent Supreme Court decisions have reduced the dogmatic nature of the constitutional ban and abortion is constitutional in certain very limited situations, e.g. threat of suicide or foetal abnormality. However, only the Labour Party has campaigned to have the decisions of the Supreme Court translated into legislation. In the absence of legislative guidance no hospital or doctor will perform abortions in Ireland even on the Supreme Court's terms and as a consequence the Court's interpretation has not been given wider practical effect.

I hope that explains the situation here in Ireland.
That is fascinating. Seriously. Do you believe this unduly keeps women from access to abortions, or do you believe that those who would get them have easy access to other States in the EU?

[FUCK THE POLICE]

Hi Watermark - good question. None of the parties, either in the Irish Republic or in Northern Ireland, are pro-choice in the sense of supporting access by women to abortion on broadly the same lines as we have across the EU or you have in the US.

In the Republic there is a constitutional prohibition on abortion except where the woman's life or health is threatened. In Northern Ireland abortion remains prohibited by the Offences against the Person Act because the UK Abortion Act has never been extended to cover Northern Ireland. In practice this means that abortions are not performed in Ireland and women seeking a termination travel to Britain or the European continent (France and the Netherlands mainly).

The closest any of the parties gets to supporting abortion, in very limited circumstances, is my own party, the Labour Party. Recent Supreme Court decisions have reduced the dogmatic nature of the constitutional ban and abortion is constitutional in certain very limited situations, e.g. threat of suicide or foetal abnormality. However, only the Labour Party has campaigned to have the decisions of the Supreme Court translated into legislation. In the absence of legislative guidance no hospital or doctor will perform abortions in Ireland even on the Supreme Court's terms and as a consequence the Court's interpretation has not been given wider practical effect.

I hope that explains the situation here in Ireland.

Hmmm...

I had always thought that the British had forced the Northern Irelander's to accept abortion. I guess they held back in order to placate the nationalists. I'm sure anyone who really wanted an abortion would just fly over to Ireland, but it is really an unnecessary inconvenience that the state burdens them with.

Whenever I was a libertarian (pukes at admission) I researched other parties in the world that seemed to hold my beliefs. And the PD's were one I heard of. I'm still a big believer in the free market but there are a lot of social issues I'm basically forced to vote for socialists because of. You guys are lucky to have a lot of political choices - in America, there are only two. And in most districts they imitate each other so much you can barely tell them apart anyway. Then again, you guys can't even vote for a pro-choice party.

[PES Activist]

So, you're party is the least Catholic? :pke:

:) Thanks for the poke, 3D.

Some 87% of the population of the Irish Republic is catholic (2006 census) and about half the population attends Mass. In the circumstances of such a high single religious affilation I guess it means that there isn't that much difference in religious composition betwen the parties in the Irish Republic.

The Labour Party is definitely the most critical of what remains of the influence of the Church in Irish politics. For example, we were opposed to the special deal that the State did a few years back to indemnify Catholic religious orders from legal claims arising from the violent and sexual abuse of children in their care. In addition, we push a much more secular approach to education and the public space generally than our political opponents.

Perhaps we are just "not as good" catholics as the other parties!!!

[PES Activist]

That is fascinating. Seriously. Do you believe this unduly keeps women from access to abortions, or do you believe that those who would get them have easy access to other States in the EU?

Women with crisis pregnancies do appear to find it relatively easy to access abortion services in other EU member states. It is perfectly legal, for example, for medical professionals or crisis pregnancy agencies operating in Ireland to refer women to hospitals in Britain or on the continent. In addition, travel costs to Britain and mainland Europe are not that high, although clearly any women taking this route would incur higher costs than if she was able to avail of a termination in Ireland.

Perhaps the best evidence for the ease with which Irish women can access termination services outside of the State is that the phenomenon of "back-street" or DIY abortions is almost unknown in Ireland.

However, the biggest concern is that women who have a termination abroad do not have access to follow-up services such as ongoing counselling or medical supervision when they return to Ireland. This can be arranged individually, but inevitably many women do not do this and that can mean that many women are left vulnerable and unsupported, particularly if they have kept the termination secret from partners or family.

[PES Activist]

I had always thought that the British had forced the Northern Irelander's to accept abortion. I guess they held back in order to placate the nationalists. I'm sure anyone who really wanted an abortion would just fly over to Ireland, but it is really an unnecessary inconvenience that the state burdens them with.

Abortion is not only opposed by nationalist parties in Northern Ireland (NI), but also by the unionist parties. There is a bill going through the British Parliament at the moment on Human Embryology. A number of Labour Party backbenchers have indicated that they will put down an amendment to this bill which will extend the British Abortion Act to NI. This has drawn a joint declaration and lobbying effort from Sinn Féin and the SDLP (nationalist parties) and the DUP and UUP (unionists) to persuade other British MP's to vote against the proposed amendment. It is truly amazing to observe what these parties in NI will actually unite around!


Whenever I was a libertarian (pukes at admission) I researched other parties in the world that seemed to hold my beliefs. And the PD's were one I heard of. I'm still a big believer in the free market but there are a lot of social issues I'm basically forced to vote for socialists because of. You guys are lucky to have a lot of political choices - in America, there are only two. And in most districts they imitate each other so much you can barely tell them apart anyway. Then again, you guys can't even vote for a pro-choice party.

There certainly are a lot of credible (i.e. with the chance of getting elected)political choices both in Ireland and across the EU. In our parliament (Dáil Éireann) the following political parties are represented (number of seats):

GOVERNMENT

Fianna Fáil - nationalists, centre-right (78 seats)
Green Party - environmentalists, centrist (6 seats)
Progressive Democrats - liberals, right wing (2 seats)

OPPOSITION

Fine Gael - very mild nationalists (!), centre-right (51 seats)
Labour Party - socialists/social democrats, centre-left (20 seats)
Sinn Féin - nationalists, wannabe (!) left wing (4)

There are also five independent deputies who have seperate deals with the government and generally support them in parliamentary votes.

There are pro-choice parties that stand in Irish general elections, mostly from the Trotskyist Left, but with the exception of one seat in Dublin that they won in 1997 and 2002, but lost in 2007, they are pretty marginal.

[evince]

Welcome Pes, You have already added alot to the conversation and I have learned much.

[PES Activist]

Welcome Pes, You have already added alot to the conversation and I have learned much.

Thank you Desh. I'm looking forward to participating further in debates on this forum.

[evince]

Im glad to hear you thought this site offered some rational perspectives on the American experience. We do have a few clowns here but for the most part the people here are a good representation of the American people. Hope you really do stick arround and play in the sandbox with us.

[PES Activist]

I've added some photos and commentary to my profile if any one is interested. It gives a bit more background on where I'm coming from.

[PES Activist]

Just following on from the earlier inteerst that was shown on the position in Ireland with regards to access to abortion services. The following breaking news has just appeared on the RTÉ (Irish public television service) website:

Irish abortion challenge to go to ECHR (http://www.rte.ie/news/2008/0728/abortion.html)


Ireland's abortion ban is to be challenged at the European Court of Human Rights.

Three Irishwoman who say their rights were denied by being forced to seek terminations outside the State are taking the case in Strasbourg.

The identities of the women will not be revealed during the case.

However, the three women involved include a woman who ran the risk of a pregnancy developing outside the womb, a woman who had chemotherapy for cancer and a woman who had her children placed in care.

Just for those unfamiliar with the way that human rights law works in the European Union. All EU citizens have the right to petition the European Court of Human Rights (http://www.echr.coe.int/echr/) which sits in Strasbourg in France, if they are unable to vindicate their rights under the European Convention on Human Rights (http://www.echr.coe.int/NR/rdonlyres/D5CC24A7-DC13-4318-B457-5C9014916D7A/0/EnglishAnglais.pdf) in their domestic courts. I guess its a bit similar to the State -v- Federal system in the US, except it's an international court.

These cases arise, in part, becasue of the problem that I wrote about in an earlier post, i.e. the reluctance of the Irish government to write the decisions of the Supreme Court on access to abortion in limited circumstances, into Irish law. If the Court finds in favour of these women, which is likely given a recent similar decision on access to legal abortion in Poland, there will be a shit-storm of protest in Ireland. You'll be able to see the fireworks across the Atlantic!

[FUCK THE POLICE]

Well sheesh. The EU could honestly lose a member if it rules positively on that case.

[FUCK THE POLICE]

BTW if Fiana Flail and Fine Gael are both centre-right why don't they go in coalition together? Why does Fine Gael always chose to go with labour and other left-wing instead, whenever by that label they really would belong more with Flail? I just really don't understand the Fine Gael party at all.

[PES Activist]

Well sheesh. The EU could honestly lose a member if it rules positively on that case.

It would certainly increase the government's problems in finding a way to ratify the Lisbon Treaty that the Irish people rejected in May.

However, the European Court of Human Rights (ECHR) is not an EU institution. The ECHR rules on the "European Convention on Human Rights" which is not an EU treaty but a wider international treaty which exists outside the structures of the EU and which many more European countries outside the EU have signed, like Russia, Norway, Switzerland, Iceland and several Balkan and Caucasan states.

The EU, OTOH, has its own court, the European Court of Justice (ECJ) which rules only on EU treaties, most of which deal with economic and institutional issues.

The reason for the complexity is the evolutionary way in which European institutions (inside and outside the EU) have developed. I fear I misled you when I used the analogy of the US system. However, the actual distinctions would confuse most EU citizens as well, hence why you are right to warn of the effect a positive decision at the ECHR would have on Ireland's relationship with the EU. Many Irish citizens, particularly those hostile to the EU project, would view it as being an EU assault on Irish abortion law.

[PES Activist]

BTW if Fiana Flail and Fine Gael are both centre-right why don't they go in coalition together? Why does Fine Gael always chose to go with labour and other left-wing instead, whenever by that label they really would belong more with Flail? I just really don't understand the Fine Gael party at all.

The main reason why Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael exist in the first place is because they represent the two different sides that fought each other in the Irish Civil War between 1922-23. That war and its immediate consequences imprinted the party model on Irish politics that has endured to this day and is part of the reason why Left-politics has never broken out of its third place. As we all know there's nothing as vicious as a civil war and nothing as enduring as the enmity such wars produce. That enmity is reproduced in the current structure of Irish politics.

There are no material policy differences at all between Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael. Both parties have almost identical policy positions on all economic and social issues and elections are fought over the issue of who can manage things better! There is a slight difference in the pattern of electoral support that each party receives: Fianna Fáil tends to attract more urban working class support than Fine Gael, who in turn tend to attract more conservative rural support than Fianna Fáil. However, both parties draw support from right across the social classes and the urban/rural divide.

If both parties were to ever go into a grand coalition together that would leave the Left/Progressive factions (Labour, Sinn Féin and the Greens) as the principal opposition. In such circumstances the existing party model would come under, what might turn out to be, unsustainable electoral pressure and could potentially collapse ushering in a more European Left-Right discourse. It is partly the fear of this happening that helps to keep Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael apart.

[Blackwater Lunchbreak]

Hi everyone - I hope you don't mind a European intruding on a US politics website, but with all the current interest being shown in EU-US relations I thought it would be good to find a way of entering into a dialogue with people from the US.

I've looked around for a forum that doesn't have the usual crazies, and which appears to be a place for informed debate. This forum looks like it fits the bill!

Just a little about myself. I am active in the Irish Labour Party in Dublin which is a constituent party of the Party of European Socialists (PES) along with the British Labour Party, the French Parti Socialiste and the German Sozialdemokratische Partei Deutschlands (SPD) along with other socialist, social democratic and labour parties across the European Union.

My career background is in the global telecommunications industry and I have worked with US corporate customers for many years, including spending quite a bit of time in NYC, Washington and New Jersey.

I'm interested in what the changes that are taking place across our shared world mean for the transatlantic relationship between the EU and the US, and am hoping to contribute to the shared understanding that is so vital to a continuing positive partnership between Europeans and Americans.


The elites in business and government are planning to concentrate all their power into one high tech control grid, which will be able to monitor all transactions and media around the world. They will continue to use currency system and technology to manipulate all world interactions to benefit those at the top of the power pyramid.

Most of us are screwed, and anyone who points out the truth is screwed.

I can't wait to die.

How's your day?

[CanadianKid]

I forgot the Canadian. Probably on purpose. :D

Damocle is just jealous....

CK

[a11n]

im french though i dont live in france