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Beefy
07-12-2008, 12:21 AM
They're playing to the final table this week, and then players go home and come back to the Rio in November for the final table.

Weak, weak weak. Fucking weak.

These fucknuts at the WSOP should be flogged for this shit. 4 months between the playdown and the final table? WTF??/1+

BRUTALITOPS
07-12-2008, 01:52 AM
this decision effects 9 other people.

The wsop has been waning in recent years. After the initial poker boom the interest has started to shrink. WPT fields are shrinking as well. The poker economy is getting slightly instable. ESPN ratings have fallen ever since raymer won. ESPN was thinking of walking away which would do further damage.

If the fields continue to shrink the RIO could cease to host the wsop. Thats a big problem.

The thing we have to realize is that the main event is already a huge crapshoot and is no longer taken as the test of skill it once was. That's now reserved mostly for the HORSE bracelet.

Look at this as a way to get people interested in poker again. It will be like a poker superbowl, and an event can be made out of it. It's really not as bad as it seems.

BRUTALITOPS
07-12-2008, 01:56 AM
Some make the case that this could increase the chances of collusion. I can't imagine anyone would want to risk forfeiting their winnings especially when they are freerolling for 9 million.

Also the case is made that this will help bad players have time to learn and improve their skillset. A final table with more skilled play, that's bad for poker?

Besides, the pros have the same advantage. Imagine if Allen Cunningham in 2006 was able to watch Jamie gold up until the final table?

Beefy
07-12-2008, 02:19 AM
this decision effects 9 other people.

The wsop has been waning in recent years. After the initial poker boom the interest has started to shrink. WPT fields are shrinking as well. The poker economy is getting slightly instable. ESPN ratings have fallen ever since raymer won. ESPN was thinking of walking away which would do further damage.

If the fields continue to shrink the RIO could cease to host the wsop. Thats a big problem.

The thing we have to realize is that the main event is already a huge crapshoot and is no longer taken as the test of skill it once was. That's now reserved mostly for the HORSE bracelet.

Look at this as a way to get people interested in poker again. It will be like a poker superbowl, and an event can be made out of it. It's really not as bad as it seems.

Wholesale invalid rebuttal. The fields in the WSOP are still fucking huge. The only year that was bigger than this year was 2006 when that fucknut Gold took it.

Its still exponentially larger than it was looking at even the last 3 years. It faced a slight correction, but it does not do the game justice to treat it as if it is suddenly a different game because it is no longer peaking.

Nonsense, utter rubbish.

This game is what it is. Its not a fluid thing that should continually change because thats what the trendy new metrosexual players want it to be. Its a raw, ugly, fierce, intense test of wits, skill, and very importantly, STAMINA.

Where you and I disagree is in that I don't think its a contest that is designed to please the viewers, you do. For shame Mr Grind. For shame. SHAME!

BRUTALITOPS
07-12-2008, 02:42 AM
I don't think it's a contest to please the viewers. But I look at it a little more rationally. I used to be on the fence but I came around. Daniel Negraneau is actually one of the players that instituted this idea, and he's a huge advocate of changing structures etc for increased skill play. It's in a big part due to him and his structure changes that allowed for increased play that so many pros won bracelets at this years wsop, David Singer, Daniel, Lindgreen, Matusow, Medic, Kenny Tran, Phil Galfond, Layne Flack, J.C. Tran, etc.

He's not one to change things for novelty purposes.

Many poker pros have been commenting about the dwindling fields. Not just the wsop but also the WPT . Public interest in poker is waning heavily. Tournament play is a high variance game, and more and more players are going broke. They simply can't keep buying into these 10k events, especially with food and travel expenses. We need new people to become interested in the game and inject new life into the poker economy.

Consider:

A) The Main Event is hardly a test of poker skill anymore and the title of "world champion" attached to it is laughable. It's a crapshoot donkfest.

B) This decision affects only 9 people.

C) If you were one of those 9 I'm sure you wouldn't be too unhappy. You are making at least 1 million dollars, you are going to probably get endorsement deals due to all the coverage leading up to the table, increased media exposure, etc . .

D) There will be more skilled play at the final table.

E) This is an overall good move for poker. More skilled final play, more exposure, more coverage.

F) Lastly if it doesn't work they can always go back to the old format next year, in 1997 they had the final table with Stu Unger out in the 100 degree vegas heat, it didn't work so they went back to the basics.

Beefy
07-12-2008, 02:57 AM
Moving the final table back 4 months in no way increases the skill level of the final 9. I don't know who told you to say that, but whoever it is, tell them to get real.

Secondly, these "waning" fields are an illusion. The fields are bigger and better than they have been for 99% of poker history, and they continue to ripen, even if the numbers fluctuate a little bit here and there. The numbers are still huge. There are still plenty of players.

Thirdly, Negranus can go blow himself and take his Kanuk shit on back to the klondike. Yeah, he's a great, world class player, yeah, he can read like none other, yeah, he makes a shitload of money, yeah, he's got exposure, but his phony happy adversary schtick is transparent as all hell, and thus all his opinions on poker are rendered irrelevant.

Fourthly, the final 9 players' (who get put off until November) feelings about this move do not dictate what is and what is not right for the game, representative of the game, or what should be done, so using them as an adjunct to your "in favor" argument is null and void.

5th, your point "e" is arbitrary and meaningless. You might as well say that Men Ngyuen is good for and advances Coffee Mugs, well, just because.

6th, Stuey Ungar was the best there ever was. Good on you for naming him. Read "One Of A Kind", you'll totally dig it. Best Biography ever.

7th, poker is a sport, contest and match between players and other plyers. It is nt something that the viewing public should influence due to their thirst to see tupid shit.

Point. Set. Match.

BRUTALITOPS
07-12-2008, 05:23 PM
Moving the final table back 4 months in no way increases the skill level of the final 9. I don't know who told you to say that, but whoever it is, tell them to get real.


They have months to train and get coached by the best players in the world. They have months to study their opponents and improve their play. Every one of those players are going to higher a poker coach to help them with their game. If you don't think this is going to increase the level of skill and play at the final table then I don't know what to tell you.



Secondly, these "waning" fields are an illusion. The fields are bigger and better than they have been for 99% of poker history, and they continue to ripen, even if the numbers fluctuate a little bit here and there. The numbers are still huge. There are still plenty of players.


If you read what most mainstream pros are saying you'll see it's a pretty big consensus that a lot of pros are getting burned out and growing broke. The poker economy is in a dangerous position.



Thirdly, Negranus can go blow himself and take his Kanuk shit on back to the klondike. Yeah, he's a great, world class player, yeah, he can read like none other, yeah, he makes a shitload of money, yeah, he's got exposure, but his phony happy adversary schtick is transparent as all hell, and thus all his opinions on poker are rendered irrelevant.

This is kind of a non-argument so I wont bother.



Fourthly, the final 9 players' (who get put off until November) feelings about this move do not dictate what is and what is not right for the game, representative of the game, or what should be done, so using them as an adjunct to your "in favor" argument is null and void.





7th, poker is a sport, contest and match between players and other plyers. It is nt something that the viewing public should influence due to their thirst to see tupid shit.

The public shouldn't influence it but it doesn't hurt. The main event has become a huge donkfest and for you to say it's bad for the game to have a skilled final table is really out in left field. Look at the past winners, Jerry Yang, Jamie Gold, total incompetant luckboxes. This is one of the biggest tournaments in the world for poker and I don't see much of a problem having the final table put off till the very end. Everyone that is playing in this tournament is aware of the situation before they drop their ten grand. it's a special and unique one of a kind tournament. If some don't like it they can easily play one of the other 52 events at the world series of poker.


Point. Set. Match.

not really.

Beefy
07-12-2008, 05:45 PM
They have months to train and get coached by the best players in the world. They have months to study their opponents and improve their play. Every one of those players are going to higher a poker coach to help them with their game. If you don't think this is going to increase the level of skill and play at the final table then I don't know what to tell you.

Okay. You're right, I'm faced on that one.




If you read what most mainstream pros are saying you'll see it's a pretty big consensus that a lot of pros are getting burned out and growing broke. The poker economy is in a dangerous position.

The poker economy is still far stronger than it was for its entire history with the exception of '04-'06. So it was bigger then, but it is still huge, bigger than anyone ever dreamed it would be. Thats what the old school pros are saying, and they're right.




This is kind of a non-argument so I wont bother.

Why don't you marry him?




The public shouldn't influence it but it doesn't hurt. The main event has become a huge donkfest and for you to say it's bad for the game to have a skilled final table is really out in left field. Look at the past winners, Jerry Yang, Jamie Gold, total incompetant luckboxes. This is one of the biggest tournaments in the world for poker and I don't see much of a problem having the final table put off till the very end. Everyone that is playing in this tournament is aware of the situation before they drop their ten grand. it's a special and unique one of a kind tournament. If some don't like it they can easily play one of the other 52 events at the world series of poker.

The problem is that it is wholesale changing the nature of the game. It is not in the spirit of the game to do this. Stamina is part of the game. It is a test of wits, and giving these fucking fish 4 months to figure it out is unfair to the truly good players. They should all be on the same playing field. One should not be given the opportunity to improve more than others in this contest. The good players are already good, they're not going to improve much in 4 months, but the fish will, and that's no in the best interest of fairness.

It stinks. Its against the spirit of the game, it turns the history of the WSOP on its head, and its being decided by a bunch of suits who are just trying to make some whip.





not really.

Whatever.

Minister of Truth
07-12-2008, 10:04 PM
My poker face is dead sexy! :cool:

Topspin
07-13-2008, 12:58 PM
My wife can't wait till 08 is on ESPN.
the guys at work love Scotty Wynn. We we see a stock we like "All in Baby like Scotty"

Beefy
07-13-2008, 01:03 PM
My wife can't wait till 08 is on ESPN.
the guys at work love Scotty Wynn. We we see a stock we like "All in Baby like Scotty"

Best Scotty Ngyuen clip ever:

YouTube - Scotty Nguyen vs Humberto Brenes

Topspin
07-13-2008, 01:28 PM
scotty is the shit