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Beefy
05-31-2008, 12:06 AM
http://www.damnilikethat.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/06/oz-ruby-slippers-door-stop.jpg

The crafty menace will not let the interest of her party, her country, or the world interfere with her selfish ambition. I wonder what she would do if she was Queen?

-----

A day before a Democratic panel is to determine how to seat the delegations of Florida and Michigan, the Clinton campaign's chief lawyer said the committee is compelled to seat both delegations fully and not award Sen. Barack Obama any delegates from Michigan.


http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/05/30/clinton.case/index.html

Who still supports her? McCain must be firing blanks into his depends over this.

blackascoal
05-31-2008, 03:11 AM
http://www.damnilikethat.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/06/oz-ruby-slippers-door-stop.jpg

The crafty menace will not let the interest of her party, her country, or the world interfere with her selfish ambition. I wonder what she would do if she was Queen?

-----

A day before a Democratic panel is to determine how to seat the delegations of Florida and Michigan, the Clinton campaign's chief lawyer said the committee is compelled to seat both delegations fully and not award Sen. Barack Obama any delegates from Michigan.


http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/05/30/clinton.case/index.html

Who still supports her? McCain must be firing blanks into his depends over this.

:)

Off with your head.

Don Quixote
05-31-2008, 04:43 AM
http://www.damnilikethat.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/06/oz-ruby-slippers-door-stop.jpg

The crafty menace will not let the interest of her party, her country, or the world interfere with her selfish ambition. I wonder what she would do if she was Queen?

-----

A day before a Democratic panel is to determine how to seat the delegations of Florida and Michigan, the Clinton campaign's chief lawyer said the committee is compelled to seat both delegations fully and not award Sen. Barack Obama any delegates from Michigan.


http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/05/30/clinton.case/index.html

Who still supports her? McCain must be firing blanks into his depends over this.

i do - should florida and michigan dems be disenfranchised - still another election for them would be best

besides, it ain't over till its over

Cancel7
05-31-2008, 08:01 AM
i do - should florida and michigan dems be disenfranchised - still another election for them would be best

besides, it ain't over till its over

Do you really DQ? Good for you. I don't, but I'm way over getting angry about Hillary or her supporters. Whatever happens, happens. I guess it's things like "hundred hussy march" and wicked witch imagery that "liberal" men find so amusing, which have just made me feel like; whatever. At this point? If Hillary is what they get rammed up their butts? Man, do they have that coming. I prefer Obama, by far, but....whatever.

Diuretic
05-31-2008, 08:07 AM
Am I bad because I despised Thatcher's policies?

Am I okay because I (despite my leftish political leanings) think Merkel isn' t doing a bad job?

I won't take it further, but of course I can.

I don't care what's between their legs, I DO care what's between their ears.

evince
05-31-2008, 08:13 AM
This isnt from the Obama campaign now is it?

This is what any woman is going to have to face when she runs for president and it will never stop.

If she isnt woman enough to take the barbs and stand tall and fight for what she truely believes in and accept the will of the people then she is not the right woman for the job.

She needs to take a lesson from Obama. He has not once yet cried " they are treating me this way because Im black". He knows that those cries will fall on deaf ears and will only make some think he is too weak to take the pressure. What she should have done was when people said she was being treated differently because she was a woman is " briong it on ,this woman can take it. When you hear people call me names like witch and the one that rhymes with it remember, They are desperate and it shows that Im winning the battle of ideas and its Ideas that will save this country and no amount of name calling is going to change the power of a good idea at the right time. Call away and prove your lack of Ideas"

Can you imagine the impact that would have had?

Cancel7
05-31-2008, 08:13 AM
Am I bad because I despised Thatcher's policies?

Am I okay because I (despite my leftish political leanings) think Merkel isn' t doing a bad job?

I won't take it further, but of course I can.

I don't care what's between their legs, I DO care what's between their ears.

No, and asking that question is an oversimplification of Superfreak proportions. Because someone says that some people are affected by racism and Obama won't get their votes, that is not the same thing as saying that anyone who doesnt vote for Obama, is a racist.

I wouldn't vote for Condi Rice, under any circumstances. Nor would I say I'd like to see that bitches face if she was raped, which a radio talk show host said about her several years ago, and which infuriated me anyway.

I'm not going to type this stuff out anymore. I've done it till I could puke, and still some 'liberal" men will insist that I am saying that if you don't like Hillary, you're a sexist. At this point, that's their problem, not mine. But this is the first time I"ve ever spoken to you about it, so I hope you get what I am saying, if not that's ok. :)

Cancel7
05-31-2008, 08:16 AM
This isnt from the Obama campaign now is it?

?

Nope, and I never said it was.

I simply said I'm tired of talking about this, arguing about this, and swallowing what I consider to be stupid statements from liberals.

I no longer am as invested in who gets the D nomination. I'd rather it was Obama, but I don't really give a shit anymore all that much. That's all. Nothing to do with Obama, or with Hillary. Just bullshit overload.

evince
05-31-2008, 08:26 AM
Yeah this is just what the hill was hoping to do to the party in an attempt to squeak in.

She did not care about the country as much as she cares about her election to the presidency. She desided to go down fighting even if she tarnished the Clinton name , lamed the party and helped McCain win. Thanks for keeping it real Hillary.

Diuretic
05-31-2008, 08:29 AM
No, and asking that question is an oversimplification of Superfreak proportions. Because someone says that some people are affected by racism and Obama won't get their votes, that is not the same thing as saying that anyone who doesnt vote for Obama, is a racist.

I wouldn't vote for Condi Rice, under any circumstances. Nor would I say I'd like to see that bitches face if she was raped, which a radio talk show host said about her several years ago, and which infuriated me anyway.

I'm not going to type this stuff out anymore. I've done it till I could puke, and still some 'liberal" men will insist that I am saying that if you don't like Hillary, you're a sexist. At this point, that's their problem, not mine. But this is the first time I"ve ever spoken to you about it, so I hope you get what I am saying, if not that's ok. :)


Of course! And as Indi would tell you, it's none of my business anyway. But I asked those questions for a reason.

Obviously I can only speak for myself but I don't give a rat's about the gender or race of a politician. I do care about policy. With all due respect the debate in the US sometimes looks like (to me as an outsider) to be a vote for a monarch. You need to get over it, and I say that in friendly manner.

Policy. Policy. Policy.

Not gender. Not race.

As a foreigner I don't care if Hlllary or Barack gets the nominatioin. And agan as Indi would be quick to point out, I have no say anyway.

I'm interested in what they stand for. I have an interest because the US isn't Iceland. How you decide affects us all.

No disrespect to Iceland (just a word, cheaper beer there would be a good idea).

Cancel7
05-31-2008, 08:31 AM
Of course! And as Indi would tell you, it's none of my business anyway. But I asked those questions for a reason.

Obviously I can only speak for myself but I don't give a rat's about the gender or race of a politician. I do care about policy. With all due respect the debate in the US sometimes looks like (to me as an outsider) to be a vote for a monarch. You need to get over it, and I say that in friendly manner.

Policy. Policy. Policy.

Not gender. Not race.

As a foreigner I don't care if Hlllary or Barack gets the nominatioin. And agan as Indi would be quick to point out, I have no say anyway.

I'm interested in what they stand for. I have an interest because the US isn't Iceland. How you decide affects us all.

No disrespect to Iceland (just a word, cheaper beer there would be a good idea).

You would never find me telling you that you don't have an interest in who becomes President of the United states. I understand fully how much we affect the rest of the world, and it's only fools who don't. Sadly, we have a lot of fools in this country. :)

Cancel7
05-31-2008, 08:35 AM
Yeah this is just what the hill was hoping to do to the party in an attempt to squeak in.

She did not care about the country as much as she cares about her election to the presidency. She desided to go down fighting even if she tarnished the Clinton name , lamed the party and helped McCain win. Thanks for keeping it real Hillary.

You know what strikes me as veryfunny Desh? I never once said this had anything to do with Obama, who I still think is the better candidate and would probably make the better President, and who I still hope wins. BUT, the first question you asked me ANYWAY, was "this didn't come from the obama campaign now did it?" And after I pointed out that indeed it had not, nor did I ever say it had, YOU blamed Hilary!

LOL! You are fabulous Desh, really. So now this thread came from the Hillary campaign! Come on desh, really.

anyway, I'm off to a float day that my friend is having which involves a bunch of women floating around in her pool sipping mojotoes which I will be making.

Enjoy your weekend Desh. :)

evince
05-31-2008, 08:47 AM
Have fun floatin Darla , mojitos are nasty though. Maybe Ive just never had yours.

I keep thinking Im going to get sick of politics some day and somehow I never do.

blackascoal
05-31-2008, 12:14 PM
Yeah this is just what the hill was hoping to do to the party in an attempt to squeak in.

She did not care about the country as much as she cares about her election to the presidency. She desided to go down fighting even if she tarnished the Clinton name , lamed the party and helped McCain win. Thanks for keeping it real Hillary.

I completely agree with this and it's the core of what many have been saying.

This has been a contrived effort by the Clintons, most specifically BILL Clinton, to force their will on the American people.

What amazes me is how many people fell for it.

Care4all
05-31-2008, 12:39 PM
simply stated, the DNC NEVER had the authority to take all of the Delegates away from Florida and from Michigan, according to their own DNC Charter.

they had the ability to cut their pledged delegates in half while leaving all super delegates in place or to keep all pledged delegates in place along with all super/unpledged delegates in place...

What the Dnc Rules and Bylaws committee did, when they stripped them completely of both pledged delegates and uncommitted/super delegates, was break their own Constitution, their own DNC Charter, OUT OF PURE ARROGANCE, I might add as commentary...

None of what is going on here is Hillary's "fault" as implied, though I can understand the dislike for her...

so those of you taking the side of disenfranchising the voters of Florida and Michigan for purely political reasons and posturing to unfairly win this election, (Obama supporters) :D, can chom pn it...

you were wrong, all along....the citizen does count, moreso than the stupid rules committee. Our DNC Charter states such, and the DNC ruined Hillary's chances by ILLEGALLY stripping her immediately from the delegates in two of her strongest states, from the very beginning of this primary....making her appear as a loser, when she really was still the leader, at that time.....irrepitable (sp?) damage was done to her campaign because of it too, like dimminishing her to a loser that didn't know when to quit, therefore garnering less financial support.

Howard Dean deserves to be fired, I call for him to be fired and replaced...he should not keep his position, he messed up BIGTIME.

Care

evince
05-31-2008, 12:44 PM
Care she was one fo the people you are accusing of breaking these rules.

Why did Hillary vote against the charter herself if she felt it was breaking the rules?


I dont dislike Hillary personally, I dislike her actions and I also think she is not the right person to solve our problems right now because she ows too many favors and took too much lobby money. Obama has the little guy donations streaming in. The little guy feels hope that they are part of the system and can make this country better for the firrst time in many years. Do you understand what that will men for this country Care.


It is so fun to have something to discuss with you, its great to have you back here giving it to us all. Its a good thing there is differing oppinions with in the party that get hashed out. Its the healthist thing for our party and our country. It makes us stronger and better.

Care4all
05-31-2008, 12:46 PM
I can not believe that they will even consider using a poll instead of the actual vote to determine the citizen's vote that actually voted........

THAT IS BREAKING OUR CHARTER...that is illegal and they can not do that just like they couldn't take all of the delegate votes away from Michigan and Florida and they BETTER NOT mess with the private votes of citizens that casted an actual vote, and change it to some poll results.....THAT IS ABSURD and it is ILLEGAL to change a person's vote, that casted a vote

Care4all
05-31-2008, 12:48 PM
Care she was one fo the people you are accusing of breaking these rules.

Why did Hillary vote against the charter herself if she felt it was breaking the rules?

HILLARY DID NOT VOTE FOR IT HERSELF Desh, for goodness sakes....why did you say Hillary casted a vote? She nor Obama nor Edwards nor any of the Candidates casted a vote for it...so what do you mean?

Care4all
05-31-2008, 12:51 PM
Desh, how can you be taking the side of disenfranchisement of the voters that voted?

Please explain this COMPLETE AND OPPOSITE STANCE that you have taken for 4 years...

Even if I were an Obama supporter, I would always take the citizen and his vote as SACRED, and OVER AND ABOVE a bureacracy that was showing arrogance and power...

evince
05-31-2008, 12:59 PM
Desh, how can you be taking the side of disenfranchisement of the voters that voted?

Please explain this COMPLETE AND OPPOSITE STANCE that you have taken for 4 years...

Even if I were an Obama supporter, I would always take the citizen and his vote as SACRED, and OVER AND ABOVE a bureacracy that was showing arrogance and power...

I did on another thread Ill go get it.

evince
05-31-2008, 01:08 PM
I do want every vote to count. I want every person in Mi and FLs vote to count.

The thing is I want everyone who did not go vote that day because they were told that it would not be considered a vote to be able to have their vote now count too.

The only way to do this is to revote both states.

If we can not revote both states then we have to give wieght to the people who did not vote because they were told it was not really a vote.

How do you do this?

You give some of the votes to the guy who is still also in the race besides Hillary and that is Obama.

Its either that or do what the party said it would do and what Clinton and Obama signed and agreed to and not count any of these votes.

They are voting for who might take the position and not who WILL take the position so it does not matter as much as FL 2000 election. These people in FL and MI still have a chance to vote for president in the end dont they?

They will still be able to pick democratic principles over republican principles if it really is about helping fix the country. If its just about feeling let down that your first choice wasnt the one in the end then allowing these votes to take full wieght disenfranchises the voters who did not go to the polls because they were informed enough to know it wouldnt matter.

I think the voters who voted anyway may have had a large percent of democratic voters who were yet to get fully informed on the election. They voted because they thought it would count because they were ill informed. The better informed voter stayed home.

Don Quixote
05-31-2008, 08:42 PM
Do you really DQ? Good for you. I don't, but I'm way over getting angry about Hillary or her supporters. Whatever happens, happens. I guess it's things like "hundred hussy march" and wicked witch imagery that "liberal" men find so amusing, which have just made me feel like; whatever. At this point? If Hillary is what they get rammed up their butts? Man, do they have that coming. I prefer Obama, by far, but....whatever.

da

actually there is little difference between their political positions

since i live in ca, which usually goes dem, i will not vote for either of them but for a third party candidate

i prefer hc over bo but not by much

i think i could live with either of them but not mc

however, these days i just hold my nose and vote for the lessor evil :(

my days of idealism have long passed and have voted for a candidate for a long time...just against

i think the best candidates for the dems are either bo and hc or hc and bo as pres/vp - but i do not think it will happen as they do not seem to get along

however, i would prefer bc as president's spouse over michele

take care

Care4all
05-31-2008, 09:55 PM
I do want every vote to count. I want every person in Mi and FLs vote to count.

The thing is I want everyone who did not go vote that day because they were told that it would not be considered a vote to be able to have their vote now count too.

The only way to do this is to revote both states.

If we can not revote both states then we have to give wieght to the people who did not vote because they were told it was not really a vote.

How do you do this?

You give some of the votes to the guy who is still also in the race besides Hillary and that is Obama.

Its either that or do what the party said it would do and what Clinton and Obama signed and agreed to and not count any of these votes.

They are voting for who might take the position and not who WILL take the position so it does not matter as much as FL 2000 election. These people in FL and MI still have a chance to vote for president in the end dont they?

They will still be able to pick democratic principles over republican principles if it really is about helping fix the country. If its just about feeling let down that your first choice wasnt the one in the end then allowing these votes to take full wieght disenfranchises the voters who did not go to the polls because they were informed enough to know it wouldnt matter.

I think the voters who voted anyway may have had a large percent of democratic voters who were yet to get fully informed on the election. They voted because they thought it would count because they were ill informed. The better informed voter stayed home.

Desh
WHERE in the world did you get that line that they were told their vote did not count....

BY WHO?

They were told that their votes were very important and that they must come out and vote, each party spent MILIONS OF DOLLARS telling them why it was important to come out and vote...florida nearly doubled the attendance on their previous election when including absentee votes for goodness sakes...

ANYONE THAT WAS GOING TO VOTE, VOTED in Florida because they had a huge tax cut for property on the ballot along with the ads the governor their party their senators their newspapers telling them to vote?

Michigan had a special booklet that went out to all democrats explaining the importance of the vote?????????

Where do YOU get this stuff?

so you want to PENALIZE THE PEOPLE THAT VOTED by diminishing their vote with voters that never did cast a vote..........?

you say in your post, what's the big deal, they will get their full vote for president...SO WHAT IS THE BIG DEAL for you to have to MAKE UP OUT OF THE BLUE, and discern what people would have done if they had gone out to vote, and TAKE AWAY the votes that were ACTUALLY CASTED away from the person that they casted their vote for....? The DNC is the most elitist , unjust, arrogant oranization that i have ever seen in action.........

They did not compromising today...the rule was always 1/2 the delegates if sanctioned, they broke the DNC's constitution. Charter to make the sanction to NO DELEGATES SEATED....there arrogance did this...their love for power...and control...Next presidential election in florida and michigan are going to be on the same dates and they will FOREVER BE DISENFRANCHISED, UNLESS the gosh darn DNC negotiates with them or changes their own rules....

Can you imagine every presidential race onward only having the citizens of florida like my parents and sis and nephew and wife all only being worth HALF A VOTE...hey THAT'S less than even slaves of past history....

good job DNC, Good job at being leaders!

I am sorry but that my friend is nothing less than highway robbery of those that casted their votes and cheating Desh....

If Howard Dean is not fired, i will burn my membership to the DNC...what was done with this election was equal to Gore...only this time the Dems did it to dems...

THEY BROKE Michigan Primary rules to do what they did today...

your buddy CHOSE for ONLY POLITICAL POSTURING WITH IOWA, to TAKE HIS NAME OFF OF MICHIGAN'S BALLOT...that was not the fault of the voters or the DNC, that was his own fault and the voters were told explicitly how to handle their vote if they wanted him...

They took 4 delegates away from Hillary that she had earned by people casting their vote, pulling the lever for her and gave them to Obama for people that never casted a vote Desh and he got edward's delegates too?

I don;t know what fairness means to you anymore Desh?

Care

blackascoal
06-01-2008, 07:22 AM
Care, you've gotta be one of the most uninformed people on this board .. and you're either intellectually lazy or you don't have the capacity to research.

"WHERE in the world did you get that line that they were told their vote did not count...."

If you paid ANY attention to the precedings yesterday, surely you heard the Michigan delegation say that Michigan voters were told their votes didn't count .. and you continue to purposefully ignore the FACT that Hillary said herself that Michigan and Florida primaries wouldn't count.

.. AND her own representative at the meeting, Former Michigan Gov. Jim Blanchard, said the voters were told the election would not count .. AND Michigan US SEnator Carl Levin called it "a flawed primary."

Additionally, this is also reflected in the numbers as both Michigan and Florida would have had much larger numbers at the polls if the election counted.

"It makes sense that Michigan would suffer more from this problem, as Barack Obama and John Edwards had both taken their names off the ballot in recognition that the state wouldn't count, while Clinton kept her name in the race. As a result, many Obama and Edwards supporters would have failed to show up just to vote "Uncommitted" in a race that they were told wouldn't matter under the rules, and even some Clinton supporters wouldn't have viewed it as worth the time and effort.

Indeed, the Michigan turnout wasn't even halfway decent by the standards of state-level Michigan primaries. The 2002 primary for governor saw over 400,000 more people turn out than this year's presidential primary, and the second and third-place finishers had almost as many votes combined as this year's presidential race had in total."
http://tpmelectioncentral.talkingpointsmemo.com/2008/05/primaries.php

AND the compromises that were reached were both put forward by the Michigan and Florida delegations.

Your every argument is wrong, misinformed, and often just downright silly.

You RUN AWAY from facts and truth.

evince
06-01-2008, 07:57 AM
Care is actually very informed she is being mislead by the Clinton campaign.

If indeed Clinton had something so dark about Obama that it would cause him to be unelectable she would have AND SHOULD HAVE informed the voters of it.

Those who were closely following the progress of the democratic primaries would have realized that voting that day was not going to be recognized. Blame the people who forced these primariy dates on the people of Mi and FL.

Look deeping into what went on if FL that lead to this. The FL republicans created this mess by controling the FL state gov. They knew they were going to cause problems for FL democrats and that nothing would happen to the republican voters in their state because of it.

evince
06-01-2008, 08:27 AM
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080601/ap_on_el_pr/primary_scramble;_ylt=Aq9ik1L4qFwVrrCF8FvsA6ms0NUE

Clinton's camp insisted Obama shouldn't get any pledged delegates in Michigan since he chose not to put his name on the ballot, and she should get 73 pledged delegates with 55 uncommitted. Obama's team insisted the only fair solution was to split the pledged delegates in half between the two campaigns, with 64 each.

The committee agreed on a compromise offered by the Michigan Democratic Party that would split the difference, allowing Clinton to take 69 delegates and Obama 59. Each delegate would get half a vote at the convention, according to the deal.

The deal passed 19-8. Thirteen members of the committee had endorsed Clinton for president, so she wasn't even able to keep her supporters together.

Allan Katz, a Rules Committee member and Obama supporter, said the Obama campaign had enough votes on the committee to support the campaign's proposal to split the delegates 50-50 in Michigan. Ultimately, the campaign agreed instead to support the compromise negotiated by the Michigan Democratic Party as a way to resolve the matter.

"The ironic thing is Obama had the majority of that committee," Katz said. "The Obama campaign wants to move on and compromise. We did not muscle our way through it. It was a wise decision from a well run and wise campaign that will reverberate."

evince
06-01-2008, 09:04 AM
http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/05/30/DNC.rules.committee/index.html?eref=rss_politics

the 30 who made the decision.

blackascoal
06-01-2008, 09:12 AM
Care is actually very informed she is being mislead by the Clinton campaign.

If indeed Clinton had something so dark about Obama that it would cause him to be unelectable she would have AND SHOULD HAVE informed the voters of it.

Those who were closely following the progress of the democratic primaries would have realized that voting that day was not going to be recognized. Blame the people who forced these primariy dates on the people of Mi and FL.

Look deeping into what went on if FL that lead to this. The FL republicans created this mess by controling the FL state gov. They knew they were going to cause problems for FL democrats and that nothing would happen to the republican voters in their state because of it.

I agree with you about Florida republicans, but it was Michigan DEMOCRATS who caused their own problems.

I'm from Michigan and I know many there were angry at their own legislature for putting them in that position and wondered why the state was spending so much money on a primary that didn't even count. They didn't participate and the numbers prove that.

It's not rocket science to know or to find out any of this widely-known information. Care isn't interested in any facts, truth, or information that interferes with her emotional attachment to Hillary .. and I told you that she was not going to address the facts in the other thread.

My problem with her isn't personal, I don't know her .. but I do have problems with the disinformation she SCREAMS, no differently than I would have if a right-winger was screaming disinformation and refused to deal with facts.

blackascoal
06-01-2008, 09:15 AM
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080601/ap_on_el_pr/primary_scramble;_ylt=Aq9ik1L4qFwVrrCF8FvsA6ms0NUE

Clinton's camp insisted Obama shouldn't get any pledged delegates in Michigan since he chose not to put his name on the ballot, and she should get 73 pledged delegates with 55 uncommitted. Obama's team insisted the only fair solution was to split the pledged delegates in half between the two campaigns, with 64 each.

The committee agreed on a compromise offered by the Michigan Democratic Party that would split the difference, allowing Clinton to take 69 delegates and Obama 59. Each delegate would get half a vote at the convention, according to the deal.

The deal passed 19-8. Thirteen members of the committee had endorsed Clinton for president, so she wasn't even able to keep her supporters together.

Allan Katz, a Rules Committee member and Obama supporter, said the Obama campaign had enough votes on the committee to support the campaign's proposal to split the delegates 50-50 in Michigan. Ultimately, the campaign agreed instead to support the compromise negotiated by the Michigan Democratic Party as a way to resolve the matter.

"The ironic thing is Obama had the majority of that committee," Katz said. "The Obama campaign wants to move on and compromise. We did not muscle our way through it. It was a wise decision from a well run and wise campaign that will reverberate."

It proves that Obama has not only won the outside game of politics, but he's also won the inside game.

The Clinton era of control of the Democratic Party is over .. and the country will be better off for it.

evince
06-01-2008, 09:33 AM
I agree with you BAC.

My history with Care is years long and she has in every time other than this one been a voice of reason and her name has been reflected in her every post.

She truely is one of my favorite people on the planet.

I have to admitt Im a little distressed by her devotion to Hillary Clinton in light of this last year.

evince
06-01-2008, 09:34 AM
I agree with you about Florida republicans, but it was Michigan DEMOCRATS who caused their own problems.

I'm from Michigan and I know many there were angry at their own legislature for putting them in that position and wondered why the state was spending so much money on a primary that didn't even count. They didn't participate and the numbers prove that.

It's not rocket science to know or to find out any of this widely-known information. Care isn't interested in any facts, truth, or information that interferes with her emotional attachment to Hillary .. and I told you that she was not going to address the facts in the other thread.

My problem with her isn't personal, I don't know her .. but I do have problems with the disinformation she SCREAMS, no differently than I would have if a right-winger was screaming disinformation and refused to deal with facts.

Im wondering if the Dem leadeship in Mi are Hillary backers?

blackascoal
06-01-2008, 09:37 AM
Im wondering if the Dem leadeship in Mi are Hillary backers?

The Governor, Debbie Stabenow, and Congresman Dingell's wife, were the driving forces behind Michigan's decision to thumb their noses at the DNC.

Both are Clinton supporters.

evince
06-01-2008, 09:39 AM
Now we get to the bottom of why Hillary was the ONLY candidate not to pull her name.

It may also explain why they did not allow people to write in other names.

40% still voted uncommitted instead of voting the only name on the ballot.

blackascoal
06-01-2008, 09:49 AM
Now we get to the bottom of why Hillary was the ONLY candidate not to pull her name.

It may also explain why they did not allow people to write in other names.

40% still voted uncommitted instead of voting the only name on the ballot.

A Ploy for ‘Uncommitted’ in Michigan
By Nick Bunkley

Rarely do people work so hard to drum up votes for no one in particular.

Because Michigan’s Jan. 15 primary violates Democratic National Committee rules, Senator Barack Obama and John Edwards withdrew from the state’s race, leaving Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton as the party’s only major candidate on the ballot. (Mrs. Clinton has pledged not to campaign here.) But a last-minute campaign by supporters of Mr. Edwards and Mr. Obama urges voters to vote “uncommitted” to help them gain momentum and to deal a setback to Mrs. Clinton.

Representative John Conyers Jr. and his wife, Monica Conyers, a Detroit city councilwoman, Democrats who support Mr. Obama, began running radio commercials on Wednesday telling people to vote uncommitted. Several groups, Michiganders for Obama, Michigan for Edwards and the newly formed Detroiters for Uncommitted Voters, have been campaigning door-to-door, on the phone and at rallies, spreading the uncommitted message.

The groups hope that a significant turnout by uncommitted voters will generate national attention for their candidates. Also, under Michigan election law, if at least 15 percent of votes in any district or statewide are for “uncommitted,” the corresponding percentage of delegates may back any candidate.

Because neither Mr. Obama nor Mr. Edwards registered as write-in candidates, any write-in votes for them will be thrown out.
http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/01/10/a-ploy-for-uncommitted/

To suggest that Obama should get no votes from Michigan, but Clinton should, is incredibly stupid.

Even the Michigan delegation agrees with the compromise. Does Hillary or Care know more, or care more about Michigan voters than Michigan voters do?

I think not.

evince
06-01-2008, 10:01 AM
if at least 15 percent of votes in any district or statewide are for “uncommitted,” the corresponding percentage of delegates may back any candidate.
How in light of this can anyone say they should go to Clinton?

blackascoal
06-01-2008, 06:09 PM
if at least 15 percent of votes in any district or statewide are for “uncommitted,” the corresponding percentage of delegates may back any candidate.
How in light of this can anyone say they should go to Clinton?

One word .. DESPERATION.

tinfoil
06-01-2008, 06:35 PM
I agree with you BAC.

My history with Care is years long and she has in every time other than this one been a voice of reason and her name has been reflected in her every post.

She truely is one of my favorite people on the planet.

I have to admitt Im a little distressed by her devotion to Hillary Clinton in light of this last year.

LOL

I think you've been able to filter out the brainwashing effect Hillary has on some democrat voters. Care simply trusts Hillary, whereas your good instincts tell you she's not trustworthy.

I wonder how bitter Care is going to be when they don't count votes that could have made a difference. That's assuming it's even that close. I'm not sure, since I haven't looked into it. I hope Obama simply gets enough to close to the deal

blackascoal
06-01-2008, 06:41 PM
I agree with you BAC.

My history with Care is years long and she has in every time other than this one been a voice of reason and her name has been reflected in her every post.

She truely is one of my favorite people on the planet.

I have to admitt Im a little distressed by her devotion to Hillary Clinton in light of this last year.

I mean no disrespect to you or your relationship with Care, but the problem is the tone this has taken. Facts be damned, this has become all about emotion for far too many.

The Clintons knowingly incited this.

Annie
06-01-2008, 06:49 PM
Logical but passe, Obama will be the nominee, but should he?

http://www.talkleft.com/story/2008/6/1/15417/11839

blackascoal
06-01-2008, 06:53 PM
if at least 15 percent of votes in any district or statewide are for “uncommitted,” the corresponding percentage of delegates may back any candidate.
How in light of this can anyone say they should go to Clinton?

Michigan has a large African-American population, many universities, and a progressive affluent white population. Had a real election been held there, he would have won more than 40%.

blackascoal
06-01-2008, 06:55 PM
Logical but passe, Obama will be the nominee, but should he?

http://www.talkleft.com/story/2008/6/1/15417/11839

Yes ma'am, he should be the nominee because he won.

"Popular vote" is a canard, not only in ther primary, but also on the general .. else Gore would be the president.

Annie
06-01-2008, 06:57 PM
Yes ma'am, he should be the nominee because he won.

"Popular vote" is a canard, not only in ther primary, but also on the general .. else Gore would be the president.

Fair enough. Remember you said that and of course you certainly accept today the results from 2000.

blackascoal
06-01-2008, 07:07 PM
Fair enough. Remember you said that and of course you certainly accept today the results from 2000.

You're good :) .. but sorry my friend, that I didn't say.

Not because Bush "won" the electoral college and lost the popular vote, but because votes were stolen, thousands of people were purposefully disenfranchised, and republicans just strong-armed the election away from weakling democrats.

In 2004, the fraud of faith-based paperless electronic voting stepped in and selected Bush as president and away from weakling democrats .. and before you disagree keep in mind that no one trusts paperless non-auditable faith-based voting anymore .. for good reasons.

I don't agree with the electoral college, but it is the law.

Besides, Clinton did not win the popular vote .. that's a canard.

evince
06-01-2008, 07:31 PM
The florida felons list is a cold hard fact folks and that one alone changed the election in 2000.

Care4all
06-02-2008, 05:30 AM
The florida felons list is a cold hard fact folks and that one alone changed the election in 2000.


What the DNC just did in Michigan, just changed the outcome of THIS ELECTION....

They took 45 Legally Certified Unpledged Michigan Delegates(super delegate types, they can vote for who they want, and also change their mind) that Clinton would have had the opportunity woo....

And GAVE THEM TO OBAMA who did not receive the legal vote cast by the citizen...

The Michigan Rules state that UNCOMMITTED VOTES will receive UNCOMMITTED UNPLEDGED DELEGATES, to go to the convention.

THIER MICHIGAN LAW was just circumvented by the DNC's decision yesterday, and the DNC chose to ignore this Michigan Election Rule that was in place for the Delegates of the uncommitted vote ...were to be UNpledged Delegates, and gave them permanently to Obama as PLEDGED DELEGATES, which means that Clinton does not have the opportunity to grab some of them, when the Michigan law, says that she can.... THUS, the Comment of ''reserving the right to take this to the Credential Committee''.

Obama, could have easily NOT PUSHED THIS, so that he would not unfairly and illegally move these uncommitted delegates in to committed pledged delegates in to his column, because he knows what themichigan election law states, BUT IN THIS CASE, The rules don't Matter....

If he had done this, and kept them as unpledged delegates, knowing already that he really has about 22 of those 45 already willing to committ to him, then he would have been playing FAIR, and would not have stabbed Clinton and her supporters in the back...

His camp has been touting that he plays by the rules, and hillary doesn't, while it is OBAMA WHO DOES NOT PLAY BY THE RULES, he gets them changed MIDSTREAM actually in this case in the 11th hour....

you shouldn't change the rules in the 11th hour, he knows better, he knows he could have wooed in those unpledged delegates, but instead of following the rules, he got the DNC to give him all of the delegates that HE NEVER GOT ONE VOTE FOR, in to his column, without giving hillary the shot at wooing them before they make a decision next week.

He had one week to wait on these delegates.....one week, instead he supported the SLIGHT OF HAND that took place... and the putting the knife in and twisting it that Obama just agreed to...

so bottom line, if the Democratic Party had not disenfranchised the Michigan voter from the unpledged delegates that THEY WERE SUPPOSE TO HAVE by law, to send to the Convention, and had not just worked a back room smoke filled deal with themselves, and now claim that ALL OF THE UNDECIDED VOTES were for Obama and not some of Edwards and some of Bidens etc and that they were NOW OUT OF HILLARY'S REACH, as they legally should have been in her reach, ACCORDING TO THE RULES.....

They DECIDED the Nomination for all of us....because this move, was the last move they could do to shut Hillary down...and it was outside of the rules.

COLD HARD FACTS.

Cancel7
06-02-2008, 05:35 AM
Care honestly, who gives a shit? Most of those votes were for Obama and you know it. I find it offensive that you would even compare this to the stolen election of 2000.

Obama is the nominee. He was the nominee regardless of what happened Saturday. how long do you screaming banshees want to hang on? Until every woman in this country looks like the first wife who won't let go? Hillary supporters are at this point, making such jackasses out of themselves that they are setting feminism back, not forward.

She lost, fair and square. It's over. Keep it up and we all look like fools. I'm really pissed off about this.

Cancel7
06-02-2008, 06:04 AM
You know Care, there is this scene in one of my fav tv series, Angel, where Gunn, a black guy, confronts this other black guy who is a rapist and a murderer, and he says to him "why do you think nobody cares when the cops come down hard in this neighborhood and beat up kids here" And the rapist says "because they're a bunch of racist pigs". And Gunn says "yeah, there's that, and then there's you, keeping the cycle going".

You think that the man put his foot down on Hillary's head because "they couldn't handle a woman president". But I say she lost because those idiots ran a winner take all strategy in a proportional primary. You think that I don't know how pervasive sexism is? It's even pervasive in the peace movement. I resigned my position with Codepink some months ago to take a position on a feminist council. Because either Obama is going to be elected and slowly, this war will end, or McCain is going to be elected and we will have endless war.

But I see feminism and war as intertwined. 1 in 3 of our woman soliders report either being raped or sexually assaulted in our military by our own male soldiers. Interestingly, male soliders are also being sexually assaulted, by other men. This happens especially when they are considered to be feminized men.

So what is happening to women in Iraq and in afghanistan? They're being raped. Every day,t hey are being raped. and that's what Hillary voted for. And she never turned her back on that vote, and she voted against banning cluster bombs in civilian areas, and she voted for kyl-lieberman, and she said spoke of "obliterating Iran".

I'm pissed at the sexism I see directed at her. I fight it. But it doesn't change that she's part of the problem, not part of the solution, and it doesn't change that when i see you, and other HIlary supporters screaming like this, and refusing to admit you lost, and vowing revenge by voting for john McCain, I feel like Gunn did. Sexism? Yeah, there's that. And then there's you, and there's Hillary, keeping the cycle going.

Care4all
06-02-2008, 07:59 AM
Care honestly, who gives a shit?

I do. It is about the integrity of our vote.

Most of those votes were for Obama and you know it. I find it offensive that you would even compare this to the stolen election of 2000.

How can you say that? the polls had him running at 11% of the vote in Michigan through December of 07? And Hillary running at 58% thru December 07???

This Primary was on January 15th?

He polled 22% on Election day, how could you possibly conclude that Obama garnered the most of vote?

Obama is the nominee. He was the nominee regardless of what happened Saturday. how long do you screaming banshees want to hang on? Until every woman in this country looks like the first wife who won't let go? Hillary supporters are at this point, making such jackasses out of themselves that they are setting feminism back, not forward.

I agree with you that alot of Hillary fans are making fools out of themselves crying an screaming on the TV cuts, but I say that this is just media sexism again, they could have interviewed or gotten the opinion of level headed, smart women, who understood the rules and what had just happened supporters of Hillary to film or to intervue or to let talk, but they had no intentions of doing such....they made all women look bad, not me.

I would think that you would have "caught" this instead of bought in to it Darla?

She lost, fair and square. It's over. Keep it up and we all look like fools. I'm really pissed off about this.

She still hasn't lost, and he still hasn't won....though he will, based on this decision, there will be no possibility of another outcome...

Battleborne
06-02-2008, 11:20 AM
and all these years on this board I thought Care was the poster child of the left...now I see alot of 'dog piles' on poor Care for sticking to her choice...kudos to care...albeit I am not a fan of Hillary or Obama...at least care has the guts to fight to the end..enough said!

blackascoal
06-02-2008, 11:29 AM
Election 2008: Michigan Democratic Presidential Primary
Michigan: Clinton 41% Obama 41%

March 7, 2008

If Democrats hold a second Presidential Primary in Michigan, the race could be one of the most competitive all year. The latest Rasmussen Reports telephone survey finds that Hillary Clinton would attract 41% of the Primary Vote while Barack Obama would earn an identical 41%.

Clinton leads by seven among women and trails by eight among men. Clinton does better with low-income voters and Obama does better among upper-income voters. Obama leads among voters under 50 while Clinton leads among older voters.

Among Michigan’s Likely Primary Voters, Clinton is viewed favorably by 60%. Obama earns positive reviews from 67%.

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/election_20082/2008_presidential_election/michigan/election_2008_michigan_democratic_presidential_pri mary

Care is only interested in lies and bullshit .. qualities best suited for McCain whom I hope she votes for.

blackascoal
06-02-2008, 11:33 AM
and all these years on this board I thought Care was the poster child of the left...now I see alot of 'dog piles' on poor Care for sticking to her choice...kudos to care...albeit I am not a fan of Hillary or Obama...at least care has the guts to fight to the end..enough said!

WOW, I'm sure your endorsement carries serious weight :rolleyes:

.. about half a pound of dog shit weight.

laughing my ass off at your endorsement.

Care4all
06-02-2008, 04:10 PM
Election 2008: Michigan Democratic Presidential Primary
Michigan: Clinton 41% Obama 41%

March 7, 2008

If Democrats hold a second Presidential Primary in Michigan, the race could be one of the most competitive all year. The latest Rasmussen Reports telephone survey finds that Hillary Clinton would attract 41% of the Primary Vote while Barack Obama would earn an identical 41%.

Clinton leads by seven among women and trails by eight among men. Clinton does better with low-income voters and Obama does better among upper-income voters. Obama leads among voters under 50 while Clinton leads among older voters.

Among Michigan’s Likely Primary Voters, Clinton is viewed favorably by 60%. Obama earns positive reviews from 67%.

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/election_20082/2008_presidential_election/michigan/election_2008_michigan_democratic_presidential_pri mary

Care is only interested in lies and bullshit .. qualities best suited for McCain whom I hope she votes for.

You are the biggest bullshit artist that I have come across...:rolleyes:

The election in Michigan was held January 15th...

TRY BEING AN HONEST ACE for a change and post a poll that was done around January 15th, when they actually had the election or two weeks prior to the primary election.

To show a poll from TWO MONTHS AFTER the michigan election to make your point is intellectually dishonest and meaningless...

Care

FUCK THE POLICE
06-02-2008, 04:34 PM
The DNC's decision is more representative of what the people of Michigan believe currently than if the delegates were taken exactly in their distorted form from the election, where Obama was not on the ballot.

Also, the undecided delegates would have no choice but to vote for Obama at the convention in any case, so your point that not all people who voted for undecided would vote for Obama is meaningless in any case.

blackascoal
06-02-2008, 08:01 PM
You are the biggest bullshit artist that I have come across...:rolleyes:

The election in Michigan was held January 15th...

TRY BEING AN HONEST ACE for a change and post a poll that was done around January 15th, when they actually had the election or two weeks prior to the primary election.

To show a poll from TWO MONTHS AFTER the michigan election to make your point is intellectually dishonest and meaningless...

Care

The point was to refute your completely ignorant assertion that Hillary was going to blow Obama away in Michigan. If that were true, how did the race get so close TWO MONTHS LATER.

Don't talk to me about intellectual dishonesty .. in fact, don't talk to me about what is intellectual at all.

Your posts on this have been absolutely mindless and you've had a shitload of posts that refute every damn thing you've said .. including this one.

PLEASE, by all means .. run out and vote for McCain .. DON"T VOTE FOR OBAMA .. burn your democratic card .. stick your head out the window and scream at the top of your lungs .. stand on the corner with picket signs .. do everything you can to ensure that Obama loses .. and most importantly, bend over, stick your head up your ass and see if you can find "justice" there.

Battleborne
06-02-2008, 08:12 PM
WOW, I'm sure your endorsement carries serious weight :rolleyes:

.. about half a pound of dog shit weight.

laughing my ass off at your endorsement.

I did not endorse care nor Hillary...I just gave respect to a warrior...at least she is loyal and sticks with her choice...unlike all of you fair weather friends...go ahead now and continue beating up care...this dog pile is your trade mark...Mr.CPUSA dude! Watching all of you implode is interesting to say the least!:cof1:

blackascoal
06-02-2008, 08:16 PM
I did not endorse care nor Hillary...I just gave respect to a warrior...at least she is loyal and sticks with her choice...unlike all of you fair weather friends...go ahead now and continue beating up care...this dog pile is your trade mark...Mr.CPUSA dude! Watching all of you implode is interesting to say the least!:cof1:

You from West Virginia?

Cheney thinks you are. :)