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Cancel3
05-26-2008, 10:24 PM
This might not be popular with some of the folks here. But then no topic will be popular with everyone.

I am a recreational shooter, a hunter, and an unabashed gun buff.

So I thought I would see how many others here like guns or hunting as well.


There are several basic categories of firearms. They tend to be grouped by their useage. Different guns work well for hunting, self defense, target shooting, and plinking. {plinking is basically informal target shooting}


Under hunting you would have several categories. Around where I live deer hunting is the most popular big game. But wild hogs are also plentiful enough to hunt.

Under Hunting, I would suggest Big Game, Small Game, Varmint, Upland birds and Waterfowl are the main areas of interest (although I am not sure where turkey fits in the scheme so I will make that a category too)

For big game in the southeast, you are mainly talking deer. I currently use a 7mm Remington Magnum, but I would say that the .270 Winchester or the 30-06 are the best all around whitetail rifles. I know hunters who use everything from a .243 to a .300 Win Mag, but the two I listed above will do all you need and then some. The venerable 30-30 (and some other lever action rifles) are good in heavy woods, but lack the range for occasional long shots. My personal favorite for whitetail deer would be a Ruger No.1A Light Sporter in .270. The same guns would work for Mule deer or even elk (although the smaller caliber would require VERY careful shot placement). But if you are going to go after bigger animals (elk, moose ect), I would think you'd want a bigger gun, with the 30-06 being a minimum.

For wild hogs the same guns can work well from a stand. If you are going to stalk them on the ground you want more impact. While a deer will run away, a hog may or may not run. If he doesn't run and has any size, you don't want a small caliber round. I have a Marlin 45-70 Gov't that will do the trick on virtually any feral swine I may come across in the woods. Its handy and quick to shoot. And with the new pointed rounds, its a good 100 yard rifle.

Small game is mainly rabbit, squirrel, and the like. I'm not a fan of hunting behind or over dogs, so rabbit and squirrel are my two main prey. Both are easily taken with a .22LR. I know the fans of the .17s are bragging about what that bullet can do, but I like a gun I can shoot a lot and not break the bank. I have a Ruger 10/22 that is hard to beat in quick shooting. Ruger also makes a 77/22 that is a bolt action. It feels like an ultra light big game gun. Kimber also makes an awesome bolt action .22.

Varmint hunting gets a little more specialized in its weaponry. Depending on the animal, you may be making shots out to 400 or 500 yards. I am not out west, so my ranges run much smaller. The most I will stretch out is about 300 yards. But that better be a windless day and a target that is standing still. I have hunted coyote by calling them in. I had a Ruger Mini-14 for this, but sold it. (can you tell I am a fan of Bill Ruger?) I never got the accuracy I expected out of it. But the .223 is an excellent round out to about 250 yards or so. My next varmint rifle will be an Thompson Center Encore PH in 22-250. The 22-250 and the .220 Swift are the hottest commercially available rounds for most makers. The Weatherby .224 Magnum gets a few more fps, but not enough to cope with the rifles that I find butt-ugly (personal taste). Coyotes are common enough to hunt in most places, and the farmers and ranchers will usually let you hunt for them on their land. Call it a public service. For crows a smaller round will do, but you need to call them in close. Those out west get the benefit of prairie dogs. But I doubt that will ever be my ball of wax.

Not being an upland bird hunter or a waterfowler, I hope someone else will pick up this part.

For turkey you just need a 12 guage shotgun and you have the weaponry. Getting a turkey to you is the hard part.





For self defense, a good pump shotgun is hard to beat. The only drawback is the inability to make precise shots. I have a Springfield 1911A1 in .45ACP that is one of my favorite guns. The design may be 100 years old, but its still one of the most reliable and potent defensive guns around. I bought a Mil-Spec model and have done some tweaking to it. I replaced the trigger, the mainspring, and the grips. I also bought 3 Wilson Combat magazines. The magazines only hold 8, which I have been told is too few. But I have 3, and if I haven't solved the problem in 24 rounds then having a dozen more probably isn't the answer either. Good ammo is critical. Luckily, the advances in ammunition have made good bullets better and invented to truly excellent ones. Good ammunition is the only reason I think the .380 and the 9mm are good defensive rounds.

My wife has a Ruger .357 around the house when I am out of town. Not loaded with magnums, but with .38 Specials. The gun has 1 shotshell and 5 MagSafe rounds in it. The first one doesn't have to be accurate, but will stop the advance of anyone short of a drugged out freak. The next 5 rounds will pretty much stop anyone. Another plus to the MagSafe is that they fragment on impact, so there is very little worry about over penetration.



Ok, I'll stop my sermon now.


Any other shooters or hunters in the house?

uscitizen
05-27-2008, 06:46 AM
I am a shooter. Don't hunt though. .50 Cal Barett makes a mess of squirrels.

I also have a .45 colt auto. it was gone thru before I bought it. Not sure what was done but it shoots nice. KInda hard to carry concealed unless you have a gut to flop down over it though.

It just mostly hangs on the wall on a belt with a couple of extra clip pouches. It is my need a gun gotta run gun.

Cancel3
05-27-2008, 07:27 AM
Yeah, a 50 cal makes a mess out of anything, including an engine block.

Your .45 is hard to carry concealed? Is it a high capacity model? Mine is slimmer than most full sized semi-autos. I carry mine in a high ride holster and anything I wear that hangs straight will cover it fairly well.

The .45ACP is a great "need a gun gotta run" gun. Always works and stops what you shoot.


:cof1:

uscitizen
05-27-2008, 07:41 AM
Yeah, a 50 cal makes a mess out of anything, including an engine block.

Your .45 is hard to carry concealed? Is it a high capacity model? Mine is slimmer than most full sized semi-autos. I carry mine in a high ride holster and anything I wear that hangs straight will cover it fairly well.

The .45ACP is a great "need a gun gotta run" gun. Always works and stops what you shoot.


:cof1:

Umm it is warm weather here and I do not wear a jacket or such.

And at 180 lbs a .45 is a bit noticeable.
The .45 has the full sized frame but I do not ;)


I also have a ltiile .380 Tarus for concealed carry, on the 2 or 3 occasions I carry concelaed.

Cancel3
05-27-2008, 08:28 AM
Sounds like a good concealed carry gun. My wife wants a Bersa Thunder.

I am 6'2" and 240lbs, so I guess my frame would be considered full sized.

I saw an interesting method of carrying a concealed weapon at the last gun show. Its an organizer with a section for the handgun. Its an 8.5x11 ring binder with a calendar, To Do list pages and the typical organizer stuff. But there is an added bonus.

Since I travel in my work, I have thought it would be a convenient way to carry. Most of our work is in states that accept my CCW permit.



You mentioned the 50 cal. I am curious about them, but not willing to shell out that kinda cash. I have seen guys making 1,000 yard target hits. Do you do the long range target shooting?

uscitizen
05-27-2008, 08:32 AM
Naah the only .50 cal I have is a muzzle loader. I have shot .50 cal brownings and a Barett a couple of shots though. a local gun nut bought a barret. 5k or so I think.

I used to be sniper rated, but that was many years ago.

Cancel3
05-27-2008, 08:47 AM
A smokepole shooter, huh? I keep telling myself I should try it, but just haven't.

$5k is a lotta money. I can only think of the list of other guns I could buy with that same amount. And its kinda hard to plead self-defense if the other person was half a mile away.

Being sniper rated is no small thing. It may have been a while ago, but what you learned is still there.

Lots of people don't realize how hard it is to shoot well at distance.

uscitizen
05-27-2008, 08:52 AM
A smokepole shooter, huh? I keep telling myself I should try it, but just haven't.

$5k is a lotta money. I can only think of the list of other guns I could buy with that same amount. And its kinda hard to plead self-defense if the other person was half a mile away.

Being sniper rated is no small thing. It may have been a while ago, but what you learned is still there.

Lots of people don't realize how hard it is to shoot well at distance.

It is a groove kinda thing. As soon as you touch off the shot you know how well you did without looking at the target.

Battleborne
05-27-2008, 10:39 AM
I sold just about everything after I retired from LE...all I have left is a S&W model 66 357mag...with Treasury rounds..and a classic Thompson 1937 sub 45cal...with clip and drum...I'm not into hunting but am thinking about doing the collector thingee...my first choice would be a rolling block 45-70 original Indian Wars cavalry issue...they are really expensive though 3-6 K in very good to mint condition...I keep hinting to my kids(B-day Christmas)...however they keep saying 'In your dreams'...:cof1:

Cancel3
05-27-2008, 10:55 AM
There is a lot of history in firearms, but you will have to spend a good chunk of change on a rolling block 45-70. I'd love an old Sharps rifle, or a Henry 1860 model. But the budget says no.

A Thompson 1937 huh? Neat gun you have there. I am already a fan of the .45, and there is something very cool about the Thompson. But they cost a pretty penny as well. For the price of the Auto Ordnance version, I can buy a Bushmater Varminter and a quality scope, or a Springfield M1A Match rifle. But the Thompson is certainly a sweet gun to own.

The S&W .357 is a good one to have, if thats your only handgun. Between .38 Special and .357 Magnum, you have rounds that will do just about anything.

What are Treasury Rounds? I am guessing heavy stopping power, but I'm not sure of that.

Battleborne
05-27-2008, 11:00 AM
There is a lot of history in firearms, but you will have to spend a good chunk of change on a rolling block 45-70. I'd love an old Sharps rifle, or a Henry 1860 model. But the budget says no.

A Thompson 1937 huh? Neat gun you have there. I am already a fan of the .45, and there is something very cool about the Thompson. But they cost a pretty penny as well. For the price of the Auto Ordnance version, I can buy a Bushmater Varminter and a quality scope, or a Springfield M1A Match rifle. But the Thompson is certainly a sweet gun to own.

The S&W .357 is a good one to have, if thats your only handgun. Between .38 Special and .357 Magnum, you have rounds that will do just about anything.

What are Treasury Rounds? I am guessing heavy stopping power, but I'm not sure of that.

LE version of mag-safe(hollow points)...hitting power limited penetration!

FUCK THE POLICE
05-27-2008, 12:01 PM
This might not be popular with some of the folks here. But then no topic will be popular with everyone.

I am a recreational shooter, a hunter, and an unabashed gun buff.

So I thought I would see how many others here like guns or hunting as well.


There are several basic categories of firearms. They tend to be grouped by their useage. Different guns work well for hunting, self defense, target shooting, and plinking. {plinking is basically informal target shooting}


Under hunting you would have several categories. Around where I live deer hunting is the most popular big game. But wild hogs are also plentiful enough to hunt.

Under Hunting, I would suggest Big Game, Small Game, Varmint, Upland birds and Waterfowl are the main areas of interest (although I am not sure where turkey fits in the scheme so I will make that a category too)

For big game in the southeast, you are mainly talking deer. I currently use a 7mm Remington Magnum, but I would say that the .270 Winchester or the 30-06 are the best all around whitetail rifles. I know hunters who use everything from a .243 to a .300 Win Mag, but the two I listed above will do all you need and then some. The venerable 30-30 (and some other lever action rifles) are good in heavy woods, but lack the range for occasional long shots. My personal favorite for whitetail deer would be a Ruger No.1A Light Sporter in .270. The same guns would work for Mule deer or even elk (although the smaller caliber would require VERY careful shot placement). But if you are going to go after bigger animals (elk, moose ect), I would think you'd want a bigger gun, with the 30-06 being a minimum.

For wild hogs the same guns can work well from a stand. If you are going to stalk them on the ground you want more impact. While a deer will run away, a hog may or may not run. If he doesn't run and has any size, you don't want a small caliber round. I have a Marlin 45-70 Gov't that will do the trick on virtually any feral swine I may come across in the woods. Its handy and quick to shoot. And with the new pointed rounds, its a good 100 yard rifle.

Small game is mainly rabbit, squirrel, and the like. I'm not a fan of hunting behind or over dogs, so rabbit and squirrel are my two main prey. Both are easily taken with a .22LR. I know the fans of the .17s are bragging about what that bullet can do, but I like a gun I can shoot a lot and not break the bank. I have a Ruger 10/22 that is hard to beat in quick shooting. Ruger also makes a 77/22 that is a bolt action. It feels like an ultra light big game gun. Kimber also makes an awesome bolt action .22.

Varmint hunting gets a little more specialized in its weaponry. Depending on the animal, you may be making shots out to 400 or 500 yards. I am not out west, so my ranges run much smaller. The most I will stretch out is about 300 yards. But that better be a windless day and a target that is standing still. I have hunted coyote by calling them in. I had a Ruger Mini-14 for this, but sold it. (can you tell I am a fan of Bill Ruger?) I never got the accuracy I expected out of it. But the .223 is an excellent round out to about 250 yards or so. My next varmint rifle will be an Thompson Center Encore PH in 22-250. The 22-250 and the .220 Swift are the hottest commercially available rounds for most makers. The Weatherby .224 Magnum gets a few more fps, but not enough to cope with the rifles that I find butt-ugly (personal taste). Coyotes are common enough to hunt in most places, and the farmers and ranchers will usually let you hunt for them on their land. Call it a public service. For crows a smaller round will do, but you need to call them in close. Those out west get the benefit of prairie dogs. But I doubt that will ever be my ball of wax.

Not being an upland bird hunter or a waterfowler, I hope someone else will pick up this part.

For turkey you just need a 12 guage shotgun and you have the weaponry. Getting a turkey to you is the hard part.





For self defense, a good pump shotgun is hard to beat. The only drawback is the inability to make precise shots. I have a Springfield 1911A1 in .45ACP that is one of my favorite guns. The design may be 100 years old, but its still one of the most reliable and potent defensive guns around. I bought a Mil-Spec model and have done some tweaking to it. I replaced the trigger, the mainspring, and the grips. I also bought 3 Wilson Combat magazines. The magazines only hold 8, which I have been told is too few. But I have 3, and if I haven't solved the problem in 24 rounds then having a dozen more probably isn't the answer either. Good ammo is critical. Luckily, the advances in ammunition have made good bullets better and invented to truly excellent ones. Good ammunition is the only reason I think the .380 and the 9mm are good defensive rounds.

My wife has a Ruger .357 around the house when I am out of town. Not loaded with magnums, but with .38 Specials. The gun has 1 shotshell and 5 MagSafe rounds in it. The first one doesn't have to be accurate, but will stop the advance of anyone short of a drugged out freak. The next 5 rounds will pretty much stop anyone. Another plus to the MagSafe is that they fragment on impact, so there is very little worry about over penetration.



Ok, I'll stop my sermon now.


Any other shooters or hunters in the house?

I have several guns and have shot skeet before, never really went hunting. I'm not much into guns, not much of a southerner. I guess that's the case with us modern kids raised by the TV.

A magnum, from what I've heard, is scary as hell to shoot, but it will pop a good sized hole in someone. We don't have any guns specifically for self defense, and it would be absurd for me to think that I could go and and load my shotgun without anyone hearing me (my dad might have one hidden somewhere, never stopped to ask). But we live hidden out in the woods and there hasn't been any random murder in this county pretty much while I've been alive. Things are probably different to more citiful folk.

Cancel3
05-27-2008, 12:08 PM
I live in a rural area in the south, and there have been some violent crimes in our county. Most have been related to meth labs or sales.

A magnum is really just a way of saying "larger". Its more gimmick than measurement. And there are small magnums, like the .22 magnum or the .32 magnum.

If the gun is not loaded, the chances of it being any good for self defense are slim.

FUCK THE POLICE
05-27-2008, 12:18 PM
I live in a rural area in the south, and there have been some violent crimes in our county. Most have been related to meth labs or sales.

A magnum is really just a way of saying "larger". Its more gimmick than measurement. And there are small magnums, like the .22 magnum or the .32 magnum.

If the gun is not loaded, the chances of it being any good for self defense are slim.

Well, like I said, my dad probably has something hidden up in here. I probably couldn't shoot someone, he wouldn't even blink. ;)

Cancel3
05-27-2008, 12:31 PM
I was a pacifist many years ago. I swore I couldn't shoot anyone.

Then I got married and had kids. It changes things more than you know.

uscitizen
05-27-2008, 12:43 PM
Yeah so will getting drafted and sent to war.
Well it was not officially a war though.

FUCK THE POLICE
05-27-2008, 12:48 PM
I was a pacifist many years ago. I swore I couldn't shoot anyone.

Then I got married and had kids. It changes things more than you know.

OH I'm not a pacifist I just wouldn't shoot anyone. It changes more than you know.

uscitizen
05-27-2008, 12:49 PM
How about blowing them up ?
Or watching them burn alive with napalm ?
Or up close and personal with a blade ?

It all sucks.

FUCK THE POLICE
05-27-2008, 12:56 PM
How about blowing them up ?
Or watching them burn alive with napalm ?
Or up close and personal with a blade ?

It all sucks.

You must have some traumatic memories from Nam US, sorry our chat brought them back up...

uscitizen
05-27-2008, 01:04 PM
Ahh not so bad I can deal with em now. But yes it was hell. Perhaps why I don't believe in hell. already been there.
the really scary part is that a handful of people got to liking the killing.

FUCK THE POLICE
05-27-2008, 01:34 PM
Ahh not so bad I can deal with em now. But yes it was hell. Perhaps why I don't believe in hell. already been there.
the really scary part is that a handful of people got to liking the killing.

The only way for a moral person to kill a person without getting shook up is to convince themselves that the person they're killing isn't human. Once you do that, it becomes all too easy to get to liking it. War changes a lot of things in a lot of people.

Hell, entire nations of otherwise rational individuals strip minorities and undesirables of their humanity and become cold blooded killers at the snap of a finger.

Epicurus
05-27-2008, 01:35 PM
Ruger .45 ACP Model 34.

http://www.waffenzimmermann.ch/sites/faustfeuerwaffen/ruger/13786l%20P90.jpg

There's my baby.

uscitizen
05-27-2008, 01:36 PM
The only way for a moral person to kill a person without getting shook up is to convince themselves that the person they're killing isn't human. Once you do that, it becomes all too easy to get to liking it. War changes a lot of things in a lot of people.

Hell, entire nations of otherwise rational individuals strip minorities and undesirables of their humanity and become cold blooded killers at the snap of a finger.

yeah it is ok they are all muslims that want to kill us anyway....
Just nuke em all and let god sort em out. On of the more disgusting things I have heard many a person say that claimed to be a Christian.

Just gooks, etc

Dehumanizing of the opponent is a primary tactic of war.

Thorn
05-27-2008, 01:40 PM
OH I'm not a pacifist I just wouldn't shoot anyone. It changes more than you know.

I used to think I'd never hurt anyone else to protect myself; just try to immobilize them, etc.

Then when I was working in the prison system with psych patients, one of the inmates pulled a knife on me. Luckily the situation was defused without any violence or bloodshed. That incident did make me realize, however, now that it was no longer a hypothetical scenario, that I would indeed have used whatever means necessary to protect myself and the other people for whom I was responsible. I'm all in favor of the philosophy of minimum force necessary, but whatever that might have been I'd have used it. And only the situation itself can tell you what that will be.

I'm not a large person. It wouldn't be reasonable for me to assume that failing talking someone out of doing something stupid (i.e. harmful to me!) that any sort of physical force on my part would be pretty ineffective. So I go to the range and practice shooting, trying to hone my accuracy at different distances. My goal would be to incapacitate someone if necessary, but only if necessary. I wouldn't want to be fiddling around trying to figure how my gun worked in a crisis situation.

But yes, if no alternatives were possible, that experience taught me that I certainly would use whatever means were necessary to protect myself. That could potentially involve shooting someone else, as a last resort.

FUCK THE POLICE
05-27-2008, 01:46 PM
I used to think I'd never hurt anyone else to protect myself; just try to immobilize them, etc.

Then when I was working in the prison system with psych patients, one of the inmates pulled a knife on me. Luckily the situation was defused without any violence or bloodshed. That incident did make me realize, however, now that it was no longer a hypothetical scenario, that I would indeed have used whatever means necessary to protect myself and the other people for whom I was responsible. I'm all in favor of the philosophy of minimum force necessary, but whatever that might have been I'd have used it. And only the situation itself can tell you what that will be.

I'm not a large person. It wouldn't be reasonable for me to assume that failing talking someone out of doing something stupid (i.e. harmful to me!) that any sort of physical force on my part would be pretty ineffective. So I go to the range and practice shooting, trying to hone my accuracy at different distances. My goal would be to incapacitate someone if necessary, but only if necessary. I wouldn't want to be fiddling around trying to figure how my gun worked in a crisis situation.

But yes, if no alternatives were possible, that experience taught me that I certainly would use whatever means were necessary to protect myself. That could potentially involve shooting someone else, as a last resort.

Thorn, I don't ever try to assume any moral highground over people who use deadly force. The responsibility is on the individual posing the threat not to pose the threat, not on the individual being threatened to ascertain whether or not he's a threat.

I still would never feel comfortable to use deadly force. That was not intended to condemn anyone that has or would, I probably would if the situation were right.

uscitizen
05-27-2008, 01:47 PM
You never really know till you are up against it WM.

FUCK THE POLICE
05-27-2008, 01:49 PM
If you're ever forced to pull a gun, shooting to kill is the only certain way to incapacitate them. You could try a tazor, but that's very risky, and if they had a gun in their hands you'd lose for sure.

Epicurus
05-27-2008, 01:49 PM
When you get put on the spot you might change your mind.

FUCK THE POLICE
05-27-2008, 01:50 PM
You never really know till you are up against it WM.

Well if I didn't I wouldn't know for long. ;)

FUCK THE POLICE
05-27-2008, 01:50 PM
When you get put on the spot you might change your mind.

About what?

uscitizen
05-27-2008, 01:51 PM
Just try and avoid those kind of situations.

Epicurus
05-27-2008, 01:51 PM
About what?

About not being able to shoot someone.

uscitizen
05-27-2008, 01:51 PM
About what?

Whether you wanted a chocolate filled or glazed doughnut.

Epicurus
05-27-2008, 01:52 PM
Just try and avoid those kind of situations.

That's the damn truth.

Don't join the military and don't be a drug dealer and you should be fine.

I don't know many people outside of those two professions who have had to make a choice like that.

FUCK THE POLICE
05-27-2008, 01:53 PM
Whether you wanted a chocolate filled or glazed doughnut.

MMMMMMM

Thorn
05-27-2008, 01:54 PM
You're right, though WM, if shooting someone led to your finding enjoyment in that, or even becoming indifferent to it, you'd lose a critical element of your humanity.

I don't think that any of us here wouldn't be hugely shaken up if we ended up shooting someone, even if it wasn't close to fatal.

FUCK THE POLICE
05-27-2008, 01:55 PM
That's the damn truth.

Don't join the military and don't be a drug dealer and you should be fine.

I don't know many people outside of those two professions who have had to make a choice like that.

No way I'm doing either.

I'm just flimsy on the subject, but yeah, if I were about to die I probably wouldn't even think about it.

Battleborne
05-27-2008, 02:25 PM
I live in a rural area in the south, and there have been some violent crimes in our county. Most have been related to meth labs or sales.

A magnum is really just a way of saying "larger". Its more gimmick than measurement. And there are small magnums, like the .22 magnum or the .32 magnum.

If the gun is not loaded, the chances of it being any good for self defense are slim.

Magnum refers to the longer shell casing...a 357 is a 38 special on steroids...longer case more grains of powder...same applies to 22 mag or any other magnum...technically a .223 round found in the M-16 could be considered a 22 long rifle on steroids! and believe me the mag is no gimmick...it is way more than that!

uscitizen
05-27-2008, 02:28 PM
I thought magnums referred to wine containers ?

Battleborne
05-27-2008, 02:33 PM
I thought magnums referred to wine containers ?

Only in Ky...y'all are still playing with muzzel loaders and flintlocks...a great place to shop for antique firearms though!:cof1:

uscitizen
05-27-2008, 08:37 PM
btw BB a .22 magnum is a non jacketed rimfire round, quite a bit different from a .223. A .223 is more like a .22 hornet magnum.

Battleborne
05-28-2008, 09:36 AM
btw BB a .22 magnum is a non jacketed rimfire round, quite a bit different from a .223. A .223 is more like a .22 hornet magnum.

wow so astute you are us cit...did you miss my comment the inference was a 22 on 'Steroids' all of the above are 22 caliber for all intents and purposes...I said what I said tongue in cheek...!

uscitizen
05-28-2008, 10:01 AM
Just keep polishing your bullet.
Ya might need IT someday.

Battleborne
05-28-2008, 10:09 AM
Just keep polishing your bullet.
Ya might need IT someday.


and you better keep your powder dry!

uscitizen
05-28-2008, 10:21 AM
and you better keep your powder dry!

always, you know there is more than one meaning to that saying don't ya ?

Battleborne
05-28-2008, 11:00 AM
always, you know there is more than one meaning to that saying don't ya ?

the only other meaning I am familiar with would apply to baby powder while changing the babies diapers...one may say...'Keep the powder dry'...if you know of another meaning please bring us all up to KY speed!

uscitizen
05-28-2008, 11:01 AM
I ain't tellin :tongout:

Epicurus
05-28-2008, 11:15 AM
This is my weapon and this is my gun. This one's for battle and this one's for fun.

uscitizen
05-28-2008, 11:17 AM
This is my weapon and this is my gun. This one's for battle and this one's for fun.

I think you got the idea :clink:

don't need any premature wetness on your gun do ya ?

Cancel3
05-28-2008, 04:13 PM
Just wanted to make a recommendation on a fun pest removal gun.

I have a Ruger 10/22 with a holosight on it. Nothing pricey, but it works great. On monday my wife and I were going to go relax by the pond, and I planned to throw a line in the water and see what was biting. Nothing serious, just to watch a bobber floating and catch a crappie or whatever. Two water moccassins had taken up residence at our pond. The holosite and the .22 made it easy to pop them. One was swimming away along the bank and never knew what punched the hole in his head.

Total investment of less than $200.

Thorn
05-28-2008, 04:17 PM
W-w-w-water moccasins? Shiver! We have king snakes and hognoses and a couple of others. I think my urbanite husband wants an elephant gun for those. I have a little Remington pellet gun (pump action, one pellet at a time) that works well on cotton rats. It takes so long to load the thing, though that I had to learn to be accurate in a big hurry. Wish I'd bought one with a cylinder.

Cancel3
05-28-2008, 04:23 PM
Don't shoot the kingsnakes!!! Actually, I would say don't shoot any non-venomous snakes. (hognose snakes are way cool)

A good pellet gun works well, and is quiet enough that your neighbors don't get nervous.

Tell your husband to look into my suggestion. Besides, the price of .22LR ammo means he gets to shoot more.

uscitizen
05-28-2008, 09:20 PM
never shoot a gun at water, the bullets can go anywhere. Unless shooting at pretty much a right angle to the surface of the water.

Cancel3
05-29-2008, 03:51 AM
I was shooting downward from a bank, not out over the water. But even if I had, I am so far out in the boonies that the .22 wouldn't have gone anywhere but pasture or woods. And my house and the horses on the land were behind me.

But good warning.

uscitizen
05-29-2008, 06:26 AM
Anything under about 45 deg and a bullet will likely bounce off the water.

Cancel3
05-29-2008, 07:27 AM
It would have to be a good bit shallower angle than 45 degrees.

Much closer to parallel to the water in order to skim off the surface.

http://www.ncjrs.gov/App/Publications/abstract.aspx?ID=134446

That is the steepest angle that produced a ricochet off water that I can find.

It says tha critical angle for a ricochet off water was 6.5 degrees, although I think water hardness and temperature would effect this.

As I said, I was standing on a bank shooting downward into the water. I would love to see any documentation on a 45 deg angle producing a skip. I think thats a little steep for the physics to work.

When myth busters did one of their experiments on bullet penetration in water, they were firing at a 35 degree angle to measure the depth of penetration.

Was your estimation of 45 degrees off the cuff or from a publication?

uscitizen
05-29-2008, 08:34 AM
From my days in conducting hunter safety classes. I figure they do train to a safer level, vs right on the edge to prevent accidents.

Depends on surface action of the water as well. yeah the 50 cal barrett did not go to far under water did it :)

Cancel3
05-29-2008, 09:28 AM
I was surprised that the high velocity rounds had far less penetration than the slower ones. But I did love watching the 12 ga blow the sides of the tank out.


I would not shoot at water from anywhere near a 10 degree angle. When I killed the snakes, one was on the bank, and the other was swimming along the bank and I was above him.

Battleborne
05-29-2008, 09:37 AM
I was shooting downward from a bank, not out over the water. But even if I had, I am so far out in the boonies that the .22 wouldn't have gone anywhere but pasture or woods. And my house and the horses on the land were behind me.

But good warning.


If concerned you can buy snakeshot for 22 as well as 38..it is like having a mini-shotgun...we use to load our 357 mags with the start round as snakeshot while patrolling and tracking entries on the Mexican Border...it was crawling with sidewinders and the snakeshot was a blessing as ya could almost never miss with the first important shot!:)

uscitizen
05-29-2008, 09:42 AM
I used to have a double barreled .357 mag derringer. Made an excellent little shotgun. Just don't shoot of the ends of your own fingers.

Cancel3
05-29-2008, 09:59 AM
I have .38 shotshells that I load for the first round in the .357 mag that my wife keeps handy while I am on the road.

The .22 was already in my Jeep. Thats the main reason I used it.

uscitizen
05-29-2008, 10:01 AM
I have guns handy in my home and workshop, but seldom carry one with me.
On the snakes, if they leave me alone I do the same with them.

Cancel3
05-29-2008, 10:08 AM
I agree with you about leaving snakes alone. Except when its a venomous species that tends to be aggressive. And even moreso when that snake is in an area where my daughter plays and her friends play.

Then the snake is gonna die.

Had I been canoeing or whatever and seen the cottonmouth just on a log, I would have left it alone. But not when its that close to home.

Cancel3
05-29-2008, 10:11 AM
I tend to carry one with me on most occasions. Sometimes its a .22 rifle in my Jeep. Sometimes its a .45 in my briefcase. I travel solo a lot for my job, and never sure what the areas are like.

A lot of it depends on where I am going and how I am getting there.

Battleborne
05-29-2008, 10:17 AM
I agree with you about leaving snakes alone. Except when its a venomous species that tends to be aggressive. And even moreso when that snake is in an area where my daughter plays and her friends play.

Then the snake is gonna die.

Had I been canoeing or whatever and seen the cottonmouth just on a log, I would have left it alone. But not when its that close to home.

Sidewinders are the most agressive of the US snake species...along with moccasines.... Western/Eastern Diamond Backs are more likely to avoid human contact, but it is a good idea to remove them from your homestead area...

Epicurus
05-29-2008, 11:02 AM
During the winter I wear a shoulder holster under a jacket or hoodie.

During other seasons, I usually I keep my Ruger tucked in my backpack.

I'm not supposed to conceal-carry on campus, but I don't particularly care.

Cancel3
05-29-2008, 11:03 AM
Epi, did you participate in the "Empty Holster Protest" that was held a while back?

Epicurus
05-29-2008, 11:07 AM
Epi, did you participate in the "Empty Holster Protest" that was held a while back?

Yeah I did. It was huge on my campus.

Our state legislature has considered and killed two bills that would have allowed students to concealed carry, and I participated in the protests that followed that as well.

One bill allowed all students who had CC permits to carry, which would have been ideal for me. The other allowed only ROTC students and professors to carry.

I really don't think we're going to win the battle of allowing CC on campus though. My school is as pro-gun as any in the country, and even our student body isn't completely behind it.

Still, it's nice to hear it being discussed.

Battleborne
05-29-2008, 11:13 AM
Yeah I did. It was huge on my campus.

Our state legislature has considered and killed two bills that would have allowed students to concealed carry, and I participated in the protests that followed that as well.

One bill allowed all students who had CC permits to carry, which would have been ideal for me. The other allowed only ROTC students and professors to carry.

I really don't think we're going to win the battle of allowing CC on campus though. My school is as pro-gun as any in the country, and even our student body isn't completely behind it.

Still, it's nice to hear it being discussed.


The University Board that is liberal...and replace with conservatives...or take it to the Supreme Court...challenging University Board members ignoring state laws pertaining to allowing CC permits to be armed!

Epicurus
05-29-2008, 11:18 AM
The University Board that is liberal...and replace with conservatives...or take it to the Supreme Court...challenging University Board members ignoring state laws pertaining to allowing CC permits to be armed!

It's not just the University's board it is a state law that forbids concealed carry on campus.

Obviously we would need the support of the Board too, though. But that's a struggle well down the road.

Right now the votes aren't there in the state legislature to overturn the ban on concealed carry on campuses. Maybe someday though.

Battleborne
05-29-2008, 11:28 AM
It's not just the University's board it is a state law that forbids concealed carry on campus.

Obviously we would need the support of the Board too, though. But that's a struggle well down the road.

Right now the votes aren't there in the state legislature to overturn the ban on concealed carry on campuses. Maybe someday though.

Take up the matter with your state legislators...this is a oxymoron...state law requires a cc permit to carry...then says where you can carry?..I understand most state requirements on not in bars or while under the influence...how this relates to University restrictions would be a good case to present to legislators or the Supreme Court!...imho

Thorn
05-29-2008, 01:35 PM
It's not just the University's board it is a state law that forbids concealed carry on campus.

Obviously we would need the support of the Board too, though. But that's a struggle well down the road.

Right now the votes aren't there in the state legislature to overturn the ban on concealed carry on campuses. Maybe someday though.

Here there are no firearms allowed on campus, concealed or otherwise.

uscitizen
05-29-2008, 01:36 PM
Same here. Only legit law enforcement officers, and they are supposed to let the office know they are there.

Cancel3
05-30-2008, 05:02 AM
To quote Col. Cooper, "an armed society is a polite society."

FUCK THE POLICE
05-30-2008, 12:35 PM
Ah yes, violence-based fake politeness, the best way for a society to be constructed.

uscitizen
05-30-2008, 12:48 PM
Fear and intimidation is the way of God. How can that be wrong ?

FUCK THE POLICE
05-31-2008, 06:04 AM
America is, after all, an almost entirely fear-based society.

Minister of Truth
05-31-2008, 03:55 PM
We can illiminate fear by disarming and subsequently killing everyone off. Anyone left over has little to fear...

Good Luck
05-31-2008, 04:57 PM
IMO:
Most versatile big game hunting rifle: 30.06
I love the 03/A3 Springfield with match barrel.

Best match rifle for rapid fire marksmanship: M14

Most fun plinking rifle: M1 Carbine

Second most fun plinking rifle (also most affordable): Ruger 10/22

Most fun (and accurate) target shooting handgun: S&W model 29 .44 mag with 8" barrel.
Most fun autoloader: S&W .44 Automag.

Best self-defense handgun: Italian made Baretta 92F 9mm
Best compact self-defense handgun: S&W M&P compact 9mm

Not much experience in the way of scatter guns. Anyone want to suggest a couple?

starwolf
05-31-2008, 09:28 PM
best all round and most accurate = shotgun :)

Cancel3
06-01-2008, 05:47 PM
For shotguns, the best recommendation I can make is a Remington 870.

I doubt there us a pump gun out there that can compare with the number sold. Very reliable, as accurate as you need, and plenty of aftermarket goodies.

Cancel3
06-01-2008, 11:04 PM
best all round and most accurate = shotgun :)

A shotgun may well be the best all around firearm. Its good for self defense, hunting, target shooting (skeet & trap ect).

But most accurate? I think being able to hit a target because you spray a multitude of tiny projectiles at it is not the same as being accurate.

Accurate would be putting a single projectile on target.

Good Luck
06-01-2008, 11:10 PM
For shotguns, the best recommendation I can make is a Remington 870.

I doubt there us a pump gun out there that can compare with the number sold. Very reliable, as accurate as you need, and plenty of aftermarket goodies.
The 870 has been used by the Corps (mostly by MPs and such) since the 50s.

But then, the 03/A3 Springfield has been around 50 years longer than that, and IMO is about the best bolt-action 30.06 one can get.

Guess when something is built right, it doesn't need much change.

Still not sure I even want a scatter gun, though. Something about the thought of "spread" and "shot pattern" that makes a "dime-size group" guy a bit twitchy.

Cancel3
06-02-2008, 02:14 AM
You have hit on part of the reason I am so fond of my 1911A1 .45ACP.

In a world full of delight ful new technology, its great to see a 100 year old design hold its own.

Dime sized groups, huh? Sounds like a skilled shooter to me.

For some things a scattergun is just the ticket. Other times it is what is required by law. In flat terrain states it is often the only thing allowed for deer hunting.

Good Luck
06-02-2008, 05:02 PM
You have hit on part of the reason I am so fond of my 1911A1 .45ACP.

In a world full of delight ful new technology, its great to see a 100 year old design hold its own.

Dime sized groups, huh? Sounds like a skilled shooter to me.

For some things a scattergun is just the ticket. Other times it is what is required by law. In flat terrain states it is often the only thing allowed for deer hunting.
I live in the Rocky mountains of Montana. No flat land worries here.

And marksmanship is expected of every Marine. We are all infantrymen first, other specialty second.

Battleborne
06-02-2008, 05:36 PM
The 870 has been used by the Corps (mostly by MPs and such) since the 50s.

But then, the 03/A3 Springfield has been around 50 years longer than that, and IMO is about the best bolt-action 30.06 one can get.

Guess when something is built right, it doesn't need much change.

Still not sure I even want a scatter gun, though. Something about the thought of "spread" and "shot pattern" that makes a "dime-size group" guy a bit twitchy.

The original sniper rifle...still holds it's own today with the so called newest and best! and by the way you mentioned the M-1 Carbine and M-14 earlier...I was going to buy one of each to start my collection...but damn they are fetching between $1500. and $2500. in very good to excellent condition! You use to be able to pick them up for a couple of hundred dollars!

Good Luck
06-02-2008, 05:54 PM
The original sniper rifle...still holds it's own today with the so called newest and best! and by the way you mentioned the M-1 Carbine and M-14 earlier...I was going to buy one of each to start my collection...but damn they are fetching between $1500. and $2500. in very good to excellent condition! You use to be able to pick them up for a couple of hundred dollars!
The effects of the assault weapons ban are still being felt, even though it has sunsetted. We are still unable to import certain types of weapons, and demand for existing weapons has been on a steady increase.

I'm glad I got mine a long time ago. Getting damned pricey to keep in practice, though. We need to watch the coming administration - rumors are they're planning a back door attack on ownership by going after ammunition.

Battleborne
06-02-2008, 08:34 PM
The effects of the assault weapons ban are still being felt, even though it has sunsetted. We are still unable to import certain types of weapons, and demand for existing weapons has been on a steady increase.

I'm glad I got mine a long time ago. Getting damned pricey to keep in practice, though. We need to watch the coming administration - rumors are they're planning a back door attack on ownership by going after ammunition.

Let your heart not flutter...Obama will not win the general!

uscitizen
06-02-2008, 09:03 PM
Ithica featherlight Pump shotguns are very nice.

Cancel3
06-03-2008, 04:24 AM
The original sniper rifle...still holds it's own today with the so called newest and best! and by the way you mentioned the M-1 Carbine and M-14 earlier...I was going to buy one of each to start my collection...but damn they are fetching between $1500. and $2500. in very good to excellent condition! You use to be able to pick them up for a couple of hundred dollars!

They are pricey indeed. Springfield makes one that I covet. Its their M21 model. Nicely set up, with an engraved White feather and the likeness of Carlos Hathcock's signature. Normally a signature on a gun wouldn't appeal to me. But Gunny Hathcock was The Man.

While not in the same league as the M14, a friend of mine has had good results with the CETME rifles. Its a spanish knockoff of the HK G93 rifle. He claims good accuracy and the price is right. I'm a big fan of the .308 round. Much better than the .223/5.56mm, in my opinion.

Good Luck
06-03-2008, 07:25 PM
They are pricey indeed. Springfield makes one that I covet. Its their M21 model. Nicely set up, with an engraved White feather and the likeness of Carlos Hathcock's signature. Normally a signature on a gun wouldn't appeal to me. But Gunny Hathcock was The Man.

While not in the same league as the M14, a friend of mine has had good results with the CETME rifles. Its a spanish knockoff of the HK G93 rifle. He claims good accuracy and the price is right. I'm a big fan of the .308 round. Much better than the .223/5.56mm, in my opinion.
.308 in military rifles was our first concession to NATO. M1 Garand was THE combat rifle, but they never converted it for high capacity magazines because about the time we were considering the conversion, NATO insisted on .308. (BAR and other 30.06 machine guns were clunky, made for spray, not for accuracy.) So we ended up with the M14. M14 is a good rifle, but if they made a 30.06 version of the M14 I'd have the first one off the production line. (I tried a Remy 7400 in 30.06 once. Accuracy was for shit.)

That being said, there is an advantage to 5.56 in warfare, not the least of which is being able to carry more rounds for the same weight on long patrols, and/or being delivered more rounds per drop when being resupplied by air. But, admittedly, those advantages do not pull across into civilian needs. OTOH, if you're a "might need this someday" type, .223 is cheaper and smaller, easier to purchase and store in large quantities.

Cancel3
06-03-2008, 09:35 PM
Its a good thing that you can carry more .223 rounds. You need more to do the job. Whereas a .308 is a one shot one kill round.

I am looking at a .223, but its for varmint hunting and as a good rifle for my wife & daughter. Considering the light recoil and good accuracy, it has its place.

But I am a long time believer in using as much gun as you can. My favorite revolver is a .44, my favorite autoloader is a .45, and my favorite auto-loading rifle is a .308.

I get excellent accuracy out of my Remington 700 in 7mm Magnum, but there is something special about the M14 in my mind.

Good Luck
06-03-2008, 10:29 PM
Its a good thing that you can carry more .223 rounds. You need more to do the job. Whereas a .308 is a one shot one kill round.

I am looking at a .223, but its for varmint hunting and as a good rifle for my wife & daughter. Considering the light recoil and good accuracy, it has its place.

But I am a long time believer in using as much gun as you can. My favorite revolver is a .44, my favorite autoloader is a .45, and my favorite auto-loading rifle is a .308.

I get excellent accuracy out of my Remington 700 in 7mm Magnum, but there is something special about the M14 in my mind.
Military ammo is all FMJ.

A .30 cal in the right place will kill, but in a non-vital place will make a neat hole in and out.

A .223 round will also kill with one round if it hits the right place. But if it hits a non-vital area, it will likely deflect, bounce around inside, and even if not fatal is likely to cause more damage than a .30 cal bullet hitting the same place from the same angle. Buddy of mine was killed in Grenada because a small caliber bullet (5.45mm) hit him. It entered just above the knee, hit the bone and was deflected, traveled up his thigh and severed his femoral artery. He bled out before we could stop the bleeding.

A .30 cal bullet would have been heavy enough to break the bone, or even punch through it. Woulda fucked up his leg good, but he'd still be alive.

The only advantage to heavier calibers in combat is they are accurate over longer distances. Small bullets tend to start to tumble after a few hundred yards - earlier if there's much of a wind. A .30 cal won't.

Like I said, the need to carry lots of ammo does not come up in civilian use. It DOES come up in combat, and not because heavier bullets kill more so you need more smaller bullets to do the job. It comes up in combat because 90% of shooting is simply trying to spoil the other guys aim and keep their heads down. And they are shooting back, most of which is to spoil your aim and keep your head down. Modern combat uses a lot of ammo that way. And it's a real bitch if you find yourself needing to conserve because you're running low. Conserving ammo lets the enemy take better aim, which can fuck up your day.

Civilian situations are quite the opposite. Heavier calibers are preferable in hunting big game because they don't bounce around ruining meat. And if one needs more than a 5 round mag to bring home the meat, one really should practice more before going out again.

Heavier caliber handguns are preferable because, being close contact weapons, you need to put the target down hard before they can close on you. Even in combat a heavy handgun is preferable to a light one. I like the Baretta because of the way it feels, not because of its stopping power. My model 29 does that job.

Cancel3
06-04-2008, 04:50 AM
You obviously know your munitions and have given thought to the uses.

The Model 29 is a great weapon. I have a Ruger 50th Anniv. Blackhawk in .44 that I love to shoot. Hopefully this fall I will tag a deer and at least one feral hog with it. Its also loaded in the house for whatever might try and ruin my peaceful night.