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kudzu
12-17-2018, 07:32 AM
The book of Genesis includes two very different creation stories. The first, “Genesis 1” runs from verse 1:1 to the middle of 2:4 (2:4a). The second, “Genesis 2,” runs from verse 2:4b to 2:25.

Beginning in the 18th century, European Old Testament scholars discussed this point in earnest. The next two centuries brought the discovery of numerous creation stories from ancient Mesopotamia, Egypt, and Canaan. With the discovery of these creation stories, scholars could now see clear evidence to support a nonliteral reading of the Genesis texts, since each biblical story shares characteristics of different Near Eastern stories. (We will look at this issue in future posts.)

Some modern scholars have relished in simply “dividing” the two stories as a way of undermining the Bible. That attitude has turned some people off to exploring the dual nature of the creation stories. But seeing two creation stories in Genesis is not the invention of modern biblical scholars.

For example, the ancient Jewish interpreter Philo of Alexandria (20 BC to AD 50) understood Genesis 1 and 2 to be contradictory. This was not a problem for Philo, however. Rather, it signaled to him that the two stories were not meant to be understood historically. God meant them to be understood as pointing to realities deeper than the merely historical.

For readers today, there are four very good reasons to focus on the differences between the creation stories in Genesis.

First, if this is what Scripture presents, as many alert readers have indicated, it is reason enough for us to look at it carefully.

Second, two different perspectives on creation in Genesis suggest (as it did to Philo) that “recording history” is not the point. That is clearly a very important point to ponder in the discussion between Christianity and evolution.

Third, outlining the distinctives of the two creation stories encourages respect for what is actually written, rather than obscuring those elements in order to achieve some artificial unity. Genesis 1 and 2 is not the only place in the Bible where two different versions of the same story are placed side-by-side. (For example, there are two genealogies in Genesis 4 and 5 and two accounts of the spread of humanity in Genesis 10 and 11. There are also two distinct histories of Israel, one in Samuel/Kings and the other Chronicles, and four distinct tellings of the story of Jesus.) So, when we see the “two-ness” of the creation story, we should pay close attention to what we can learn from this.

Fourth, perhaps ironically, seeing how Genesis 1 and 2 differ will help us appreciate what role they play together at the beginning of the Bible.

With that in mind, here are some of the differences between the two creation stories.

How Long Did It Take God?
Genesis 1 describes creation as a six-day event followed by rest. Some readers take these days literally, and others figuratively. Whichever way we take it, the story is told as a sequence of six acts of creation each occurring on separate days.

Genesis 2, however, does not have a multi-day sequence. Genesis 2:4b begins with the Hebrew phrase be-yom. This signals that the second creation account happened either in one day or a continuous series of events not marked by the passing of days. (Lay the two translations side-by-side to see the difference this makes.)

The NIV translates this Hebrew phrase “when.” This is possible in principle, but it obscures the distinctiveness of Genesis 2. The NRSV preserves the better translation “in the day.”

Different Depictions of the Beginning
The two stories depict two different primordial scenes.

Genesis 1 begins with pre-existent chaotic matter—darkness and a watery deep—that is about to be “tamed” by God during the six-day sequence. The spirit of God hovers over the deep, and begins the creation sequence by first making light (1:3-5) and then dividing the waters (1:6-10). Genesis 1 shows how God makes habitable what is uninhabitable.

Genesis 2 depicts a similar transition from inhabitable to habitable, but it does not describe the primordial state in the same way. Instead, we find ourselves in a land that is not yet fully habitable. There are streams watering the earth. The presenting problem is not chaos but absence of plant life because there was neither rain nor anyone to work the land.

The setting of the scene for creation is different in these two accounts.

Different Order of Events
Genesis 1 and 2 not only begin with a different primordial scene. They also have distinct descriptions of what happens next, both in order and content.

Genesis 1 describes the ordering of primordial chaos in the following sequence:

First, God creates the habitable space: light, separation of waters, dry land (days 1-3).

Second, he fills the space: plants, heavenly lights, sea and sky creatures, land animals, and humans (male and female) together at the end (days 4-6).

Genesis 2 follows a different order.

God creates ha-`adam (the man, or Adam) out of dust and before there is any plant life (Genesis 1 says plant life preceded humanity).

Next1 he creates a garden and puts the man there to work it.

After placing the man in the garden, God creates animals for him as helpers.

Then, finding no suitable helper for man among the animals, God forms the woman out of the man’s side (rather than forming humans together on the sixth day as in Genesis 1).

The two creation stories are not saying the “same thing,” nor does Genesis 2 follow chronologically from Genesis 1. They are two distinct stories of creation, both in terms of content and order. They cannot be harmonized—they were never intended to be.

Enns' series continues here.

1. At this point (v. 8), the NIV translates the simple Hebrew past “The Lord God planted a garden” as an English pluperfect “The Lord God had planted a garden.” Throughout this story the NIV handles the simple past as a simple past, but not here. Why? The NIV opts for the pluperfect in order to push the creation of the garden backbefore the creation of the manto preserve the sequence of Genesis 1. The NRSV is better here by preserving the simple past, therefore reading Genesis 2 sequentially. The same point holds for v. 19 and the creation of the animals. Genesis 2 has them created after the man, but the NIV again uses the pluperfect to push the creation of animals back before humanity to harmonize the sequences of the two creation stories. Here too the NRSV preserves the simple past.

https://biologos.org/blogs/archive/israels-two-creation-stories-part-1

PostmodernProphet
12-17-2018, 07:51 AM
actually there are four......

Genesis 1:1 stands alone and is written in the Hebrew imperative. It is actually a command. "IN THE BEGINNING GOD CREATED THE HEAVENS AND THE EARTH!!!!".....:
Genesis 1:2 begins with a Hebrew word which precedes Hebrew poetry, historically delivered orally around the campfires of the nomadic tribes. Just as we have a genre of lore that is announced by "once upon a time", the Hebrews also signaled the beginning of their lore with a word translated into English as "Now....."

You will also find it at Genesis 2:5, 2:8, 2:19......

Genesis 2:5 marks the beginning of the third account of creation.....

the fourth is found in the book of Job......starting at Chapter 38......it is my favorite.....

PostmodernProphet
12-17-2018, 07:53 AM
each biblical story shares characteristics of different Near Eastern stories. (We will look at this issue in future posts.)

I look forward to the opportunity to prove you wrong....

kudzu
12-17-2018, 07:57 AM
I look forward to the opportunity to prove you wrong....

The Hebrews borrowed from the cultures around them.. Egypt, Babylon and the Canaanites.

PostmodernProphet
12-17-2018, 08:06 AM
First, God creates the habitable space: light, separation of waters, dry land (days 1-3).

I have to disagree.......God did not create "light" on the first day......he created "the separation of day and night"


5 God called the light “day,” and the darkness he called “night.”

.......there is something else which separates day and night, and that is "time".......early people told time by observable changes.......three days travel from one oasis to another, etc......three transitions from day to night and back to day......

the second day, the "separation" of the elements.....accomplished by the establishment of the physical laws.......


“Let there be a vault between the waters to separate water from water.” 7 So God made the vault and separated the water under the vault from the water above it. And it was so. 8 God called the vault “sky.”

water from water, not sky and land......its still all "sky" at this point.......

the third day he created matter.......matter called seas and matter called land.......

then he proceeded to create life, in succession from its simplest forms to its most complex, man.....

PostmodernProphet
12-17-2018, 08:18 AM
The Hebrews borrowed from the cultures around them.. Egypt, Babylon and the Canaanites.

no......modern day atheists have borrowed.......in reality there are very few correlations between Judaism and the pagan religions.....atheists just lie about it........most of you are as ignorant of the pagan religions as you are of Christianity and Judaism........I've proved you wrong in every attempt you've made here so far......

kudzu
12-17-2018, 08:19 AM
Different Literary Styles
Genesis 1 and 2 are not written in the same literary style.

Some label Genesis 1 as “poetry” and Genesis 2 as “narrative.” These labels are fine as a starting point of discussion, although most scholars feel that they need to be fine-tuned a bit, especially with regard to Genesis 1.

Genesis 1 is certainly more like poetry than Genesis 2. For example, the rhythmic repetition found in this passage is more poetic-like: God sees, speaks, declares as good, and blesses the day. The same holds for the parallel structure of the six days: the cosmos is “formless and void” in 1:2, and so days 1-3 yield the form and days 4-6 fill it, with day 1 corresponding to day 4, 2 to 5,and 3 to 6. Genesis 1 emphasizes patterns rather than plot.

In contrast, most readers understand Genesis 2 as a different kind of text. It begins to tell a story that will later include dialogue, conflict, and a plot. In fact, it reads more like the narratives that will occupy the rest of Genesis.

Still, the “poetry or narrative” distinction is not an absolute. First, the Hebrew Bible exhibits not just two literary styles, but a spectrum of styles. Some texts are more clearly one or the other, but many others blur generic distinctions (a “rhetorical no-man’s land” as James Kugel puts it in his classic book The Idea of Biblical Poetry)

kudzu
12-17-2018, 08:21 AM
no......modern day atheists have borrowed.......in reality there are very few correlations between Judaism and the pagan religions.....atheists just lie about it........most of you are as ignorant of the pagan religions as you are of Christianity and Judaism........

Actually, the Hebrews borrowed directly from the Canaanite pantheon.. and much of Psalms is borrowed from the north coast Canaanites.. from the Ugarit poetry which predates Genesis by a thousand years.

PostmodernProphet
12-17-2018, 08:31 AM
Actually, the Hebrews borrowed directly from the Canaanite pantheon.. and much of Psalms is borrowed from the north coast Canaanites.. from the Ugarit poetry which predates Genesis by a thousand years.

actually you were stupid enough to believe the postings on some Atheists-R-Us website without bothering to engage in any critical analysis........show us an Ugarit poem that is reproduced in Psalms.......

PostmodernProphet
12-17-2018, 08:33 AM
Still, the “poetry or narrative” distinction is not an absolute.

gosh, why can't their language have absolutes like ours?......

kudzu
12-17-2018, 08:34 AM
actually you were stupid enough to believe the postings on some Atheists-R-Us website without bothering to engage in any critical analysis........show us an Ugarit poem that is reproduced in Psalms.......

Psalm 65 - "Without me you can do nothing" (Jn 15:5).

Ugarit was an ancient port city at the Ras Shamra headland in northern Syria. Ugarit had close connections to the Hittite Empire, sent tribute to Egypt at times, and maintained trade and diplomatic connections with Cyprus (then called Alashiya), documented in the archives recovered from the site and corroborated by Mycenaean and Cypriot pottery found there.

https://jerryandgod.com/psalm-65/

kudzu
12-17-2018, 08:36 AM
In 1928 French Archeologists discovered a large collection of cuneiform tablets with a script unlike the previously discovered cuneiform writing. This discovery was made at a site known as "Ras Shamra" near the Mediterranean coast in modern day Syria. The site was later discovered to be the ancient Canaanite city of Ugarit. It was later discovered that the Ugarit cuneiform was a phonogram, or alphabetic, where each cuneiform sign represented one letter of an alphabet. The Ugarit Alphabet was Semitic, the same as Hebrew. Some have even called the writing system of Ugarit "Hebrew cuneiform". Not only is the Ugarit alphabet Semitic, the Ugarit language was also Semitic and almost identical to Hebrew. This was a great discovery for Biblical Hebrew scholars as the Ugarit language was able to shed some light on some Hebrew words of uncertain meaning.

The city of Ugarit was occupied from pre-historic times to about 1200 BCE when it was mysteriously deserted. The tablets with the Ugarit cuneiform were written in its later life (about 1300 to 1200 BCE). It was discovered through the writings of the tablets that the people of the city were worshipers of the same Canaanite gods as their surrounding neighbors including deities as El, Baal, Asherah and even Yahweh. The culture, lifestyles and literary writings were found to be very similar to the Israelites and can also shed much light on the Biblical text.

The origins of the Ugarit cuneiform script is not known but can be assumed that it was derived out of the same Pictographic script used to write Hebrew, just as the Sumerian cuneiform evolved out of a pictographic script. This theory adds to the evidence that the Semitic/Hebrew script is older than previously thought.

The passage above is Psalm 89:20 (19 in English Bibles) in Hebrew. This verse is literally translated as: "I placed help over the mighty, I lifted up the chosen one from the people". This verse is classic Hebrew poetry. This form of poetry is parellelism where one idea is expressed in two different ways. This style of poetry is found throughout the book of Psalms and Proverbs. In this verse the first half is paralleled with the second half as demonstrated below;

continued

http://www.ancient-hebrew.org/bible_ugarit.html

kudzu
12-17-2018, 08:38 AM
B425 Ugarit and the Bible - Quartz Hill School of Theology

Biblical poetry follows Ugaritc poetry in form and function. There is parallelism, qinah metre, bi and tri colas, and all of the poetic tools found in the Bible are found at Ugarit. In short the Ugaritic materials have a great deal to contribute to our understanding of the Biblical materials; especially since they predate any of the Biblical texts.

http://www.theology.edu/ugarbib.htm

PostmodernProphet
12-17-2018, 08:43 AM
Psalm 65 - "Without me you can do nothing" (Jn 15:5).

Ugarit was an ancient port city at the Ras Shamra headland in northern Syria. Ugarit had close connections to the Hittite Empire, sent tribute to Egypt at times, and maintained trade and diplomatic connections with Cyprus (then called Alashiya), documented in the archives recovered from the site and corroborated by Mycenaean and Cypriot pottery found there.

https://jerryandgod.com/psalm-65/
you're half way there.......can you link me the Ugarit psalm you say it is a copy of?........the only parallel that your link mentions is that the Ugarite's asked Baal to protect them from their enemies........I wonder if that means there's a parallel between the Ugarites and Christians in Oklahoma in the 30s, because they both once asked for rain?.......

PostmodernProphet
12-17-2018, 08:46 AM
In 1928 French Archeologists discovered a large collection of cuneiform tablets with a script unlike the previously discovered cuneiform writing. This discovery was made at a site known as "Ras Shamra" near the Mediterranean coast in modern day Syria. The site was later discovered to be the ancient Canaanite city of Ugarit. It was later discovered that the Ugarit cuneiform was a phonogram, or alphabetic, where each cuneiform sign represented one letter of an alphabet. The Ugarit Alphabet was Semitic, the same as Hebrew. Some have even called the writing system of Ugarit "Hebrew cuneiform". Not only is the Ugarit alphabet Semitic, the Ugarit language was also Semitic and almost identical to Hebrew. This was a great discovery for Biblical Hebrew scholars as the Ugarit language was able to shed some light on some Hebrew words of uncertain meaning.

The city of Ugarit was occupied from pre-historic times to about 1200 BCE when it was mysteriously deserted. The tablets with the Ugarit cuneiform were written in its later life (about 1300 to 1200 BCE). It was discovered through the writings of the tablets that the people of the city were worshipers of the same Canaanite gods as their surrounding neighbors including deities as El, Baal, Asherah and even Yahweh. The culture, lifestyles and literary writings were found to be very similar to the Israelites and can also shed much light on the Biblical text.

The origins of the Ugarit cuneiform script is not known but can be assumed that it was derived out of the same Pictographic script used to write Hebrew, just as the Sumerian cuneiform evolved out of a pictographic script. This theory adds to the evidence that the Semitic/Hebrew script is older than previously thought.

The passage above is Psalm 89:20 (19 in English Bibles) in Hebrew. This verse is literally translated as: "I placed help over the mighty, I lifted up the chosen one from the people". This verse is classic Hebrew poetry. This form of poetry is parellelism where one idea is expressed in two different ways. This style of poetry is found throughout the book of Psalms and Proverbs. In this verse the first half is paralleled with the second half as demonstrated below;

continued

http://www.ancient-hebrew.org/bible_ugarit.html

again, no translation of an Ugarit psalm, only a comparison of the two forms of written alphabet......

PostmodernProphet
12-17-2018, 08:50 AM
B425 Ugarit and the Bible - Quartz Hill School of Theology

Biblical poetry follows Ugaritc poetry in form and function. There is parallelism, qinah metre, bi and tri colas, and all of the poetic tools found in the Bible are found at Ugarit. In short the Ugaritic materials have a great deal to contribute to our understanding of the Biblical materials; especially since they predate any of the Biblical texts.

http://www.theology.edu/ugarbib.htm

seriously?....

KTU 1.114:2-4 says:

Eat, o Gods, and drink, drink wine till you are sated,

Which is very similar to Proverbs 9:5;
Come, eat of my food and drink wine that I have mixed .

that's your copying?......

kudzu
12-17-2018, 10:42 AM
seriously?....


that's your copying?......

Were you thinking the Hebrews popped out of a vacuum?

PostmodernProphet
12-17-2018, 10:51 AM
Were you thinking the Hebrews popped out of a vacuum?

no......I'm thinking all your ideas popped out of a vacuum, though.......did you really think that's a parallel?....they aren't even addressed to the same audience....

Proverbs 9

To those who have no sense she says,
5 “Come, eat my food
and drink the wine I have mixed.

while the Ugarit poem is addressed to the gods they worship.....

kudzu
12-18-2018, 01:43 PM
no......I'm thinking all your ideas popped out of a vacuum, though.......did you really think that's a parallel?....they aren't even addressed to the same audience....

Proverbs 9


while the Ugarit poem is addressed to the gods they worship.....


Nope.. They found a lot of clay tablets at Ras Shamra .. The Ugarit date back to 6,000 BC.


The "Associates for Biblical Research" website states the following;

The value of the Ugarit texts for Biblical studies lies in the fact that Mari is located in the vicinity of the homeland of the Patriarchs, being about 200 mi (320 km) southeast of Haran. It thus shares a common culture with the area where the Patriarchs originated.

Some documents detail practices such as adoption and inheritance similar to those found in the Genesis accounts. The tablets speak of the slaughtering of animals when covenants were made, judges similar to the judges of the Old Testament, gods that are also named in the Hebrew Bible, and personal names such as Noah, Abram, Laban and Jacob.

A city named Nahur is mentioned, possibly named after Abraham's grandfather Nahor (Gn 11:22-25), as well as the city of Haran where Abraham lived for a time (Gn 11:31-12:4). Hazor is spoken of often in the Mari texts and there is a reference to Laish (Dan) as well. A unique collection of 30 texts deals with prophetic messages that were delivered to local rulers who relayed them to the king. The findings at Mari show that the Patriarchal narratives accurately reflect the socioeconomic conditions of that time and place.


http://www.ancient-hebrew.org/bible_ugarit.html

PostmodernProphet
12-18-2018, 04:18 PM
Nope.. They found a lot of clay tablets at Ras Shamra .. The Ugarit date back to 6,000 BC.


and which of them had David's psalms written on them?.......can you link to one?......

kudzu
12-18-2018, 04:44 PM
and which of them had David's psalms written on them?.......can you link to one?......

Did you read the link I posted?

PostmodernProphet
12-18-2018, 08:11 PM
Did you read the link I posted?

no......I figured if you had anything important to say you would have posted it........please do so......especially if its an Ugarit poem copied by a Hebrew psalm......

kudzu
12-18-2018, 08:16 PM
no......I figured if you had anything important to say you would have posted it........please do so......especially if its an Ugarit poem copied by a Hebrew psalm......

I posted a link for you from Associates of Biblical Research.

PostmodernProphet
12-18-2018, 08:31 PM
I posted a link for you from Associates of Biblical Research.

you posted no Ugarit texts that were copied by one of the psalms or any links to one.......obviously because you lied when you said they were copied.......

Ralph
12-18-2018, 10:18 PM
This is simple ignorance of the WORD and how to rightly divide it (comprehend, understand it) -- 2 Tim. 2:15. Moses is the author indeed of the 1st 5 books (Luke 24:27,44). But to suggest that this was a first hand account is not rightly dividing the word of Truth.


Moses but recorded the 1st 5 books.....there are several different sources addressed in the Bible itself...each with a unique contribution as witnessed from each's point of view. Even in a court of law no two witnesses give exactly the same details in testimony, only what they remember.


God is attributed to the 1st account of creation as recorded prior to (Genesis 2:4). Next comes the records of ADAM, "This is the book of the genealogy of Adam.....in the day that God created man, He made him in the likeness of God." -- Genesis 5:1 Next is the record of Noah (Gen. 6:9). Then the record of Shem, Sham, and Japheth (Gen. 10:1). Then the stories of Terah, Ishmael, Isaac, Esau, Jacob...etc.,


Suppose it was YOU instead of Moses tasked with making such a record. Of course you would start in the beginning before man was created giving details of earth's history. Form Genesis 1:1 through Genesis 2:4 it is God's account of how He created the world it is provided in great detail....then comes the beginning of Adams account generally speaking (Genesis 2:4-7) Noah's account concerning creation begins in Genesis 5:1.


Each is recorded in the Bible with each record mentioned by name. There you have 3 different accounts of creation. Why do you not claim there are 3 different creation stories in the Hebrew Account? :bigthink: Conclusion: There is but ONE creation......with many different accounts thereof. Moses was recording an ORAL HISTORY, inspired as it was....it was still unique to all the different histories found in the Book of Genesis.

kudzu
12-19-2018, 02:17 AM
This is simple ignorance of the WORD and how to rightly divide it (comprehend, understand it) -- 2 Tim. 2:15. Moses is the author indeed of the 1st 5 books (Luke 24:27,44). But to suggest that this was a first hand account is not rightly dividing the word of Truth.


Moses but recorded the 1st 5 books.....there are several different sources addressed in the Bible itself...each with a unique contribution as witnessed from each's point of view. Even in a court of law no two witnesses give exactly the same details in testimony, only what they remember.


God is attributed to the 1st account of creation as recorded prior to (Genesis 2:4). Next comes the records of ADAM, "This is the book of the genealogy of Adam.....in the day that God created man, He made him in the likeness of God." -- Genesis 5:1 Next is the record of Noah (Gen. 6:9). Then the record of Shem, Sham, and Japheth (Gen. 10:1). Then the stories of Terah, Ishmael, Isaac, Esau, Jacob...etc.,


Suppose it was YOU instead of Moses tasked with making such a record. Of course you would start in the beginning before man was created giving details of earth's history. Form Genesis 1:1 through Genesis 2:4 it is God's account of how He created the world it is provided in great detail....then comes the beginning of Adams account generally speaking (Genesis 2:4-7) Noah's account concerning creation begins in Genesis 5:1.


Each is recorded in the Bible with each record mentioned by name. There you have 3 different accounts of creation. Why do you not claim there are 3 different creation stories in the Hebrew Account? :bigthink: Conclusion: There is but ONE creation......with many different accounts thereof. Moses was recording an ORAL HISTORY, inspired as it was....it was still unique to all the different histories found in the Book of Genesis.

Moses didn't write the Pentateusch.

In the original story of Isaac Abraham killed Isaac on the sacrificial altar... and in a third version Isaac is killed and resurrected.

https://thetorah.com/the-sacrifice-of-isaac-in-context/

https://www.sefaria.org/sheets/67097?lang=bi

PostmodernProphet
12-19-2018, 07:45 AM
Moses didn't write the Pentateusch.

In the original story of Isaac Abraham killed Isaac on the sacrificial altar... and in a third version Isaac is killed and resurrected.

https://thetorah.com/the-sacrifice-of-isaac-in-context/

https://www.sefaria.org/sheets/67097?lang=bi

you poor, mad atheist......your links do not identify any second or third "versions"......if Isaac was killed, who was the guy who married Rachel and fathered Esau and Jacob?.......

by the way, it is odd to claim Abimalech fathered Isaac, since Sarah was an old woman when she gave birth......I doubt if Abimalech would have been tempted by the beauty of Abraham's wife at that time.......or perhaps you are speculating a forty year pregnancy?.......

kudzu
12-19-2018, 07:59 AM
Within Judeo-Christian beliefs, the first book of the Hebrew Bible, the Book of Genesis, describes not one, but two distinct accounts of how God created the earth, its inhabitants and mankind. This article explores the purpose of each creation story and later compares and contrasts the Genesis creation stories with an earlier Babylonian creation myth, the Enuma Elish, which dates from about 1900–1600 BCE.

Scholars believe the second story is older than the first, perhaps dating to as early as 950 BCE, while the second was probably written by the priestly caste after the Hebrews had returned from Babylonian captivity sometime around 530 BCE.

The first creation account describes how God created the world by bringing order to chaos. Here, the world was preexistent – meaning God did not create the world out of nothing (ex nihilo). Rather, “The earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep” (Genesis 1:2) God’s role was then to bring goodness and order to this world depicted as “formless,” “void,” “darkness,” and “deep” – each descriptor symbolic of chaos and “evil.”

continued

https://www.deliriumsrealm.com/genesis-creation/

kudzu
12-19-2018, 08:01 AM
you poor, mad atheist......your links do not identify any second or third "versions"......if Isaac was killed, who was the guy who married Rachel and fathered Esau and Jacob?.......

by the way, it is odd to claim Abimalech fathered Isaac, since Sarah was an old woman when she gave birth......I doubt if Abimalech would have been tempted by the beauty of Abraham's wife at that time.......or perhaps you are speculating a forty year pregnancy?.......

Isaac resided as a foreigner in the Philistine territory and around the city of Gerar for a long time and would have had to meet King Abimelech many times. Abimelech in Hebrew means: Father of the King. The second view: Title Abimelech was the name of multiple Philistine kings mentioned in the Hebrew Bible.

kudzu
12-19-2018, 08:26 AM
The Bible tells the story of Abraham and Sarah going back into Egypt to the house of the Pharaoh. Abraham denied Sarah was his wife but claimed she was his sister. Other texts say that Sarah became a concubine of the Pharaoh. Isaac was the issue of this liaison which would make Isaac heir to Egyptian royalty. In any case Pharaoh gave Abraham many gifts of livestock which made him a rich man.

Its been a while since I read the alternative texts, but I will try to find them..

In any case, both of Abraham's sons Isaac and Ishmael are half Egyptian, while his six sons by Keturah are half Arab.

iolo
12-19-2018, 08:31 AM
This is very learned stuff, Kudzu. I'm interested and impressed, but what, if you don't mind my asking, is your purpose here? Are you meaning to show up the pretentions of the Fundamentalists, or is there some other plan?

PostmodernProphet
12-19-2018, 09:55 AM
Isaac resided as a foreigner in the Philistine territory

really?.....because you just claimed Abraham killed him......

PostmodernProphet
12-19-2018, 09:57 AM
Isaac was the issue of this liaison

sure, except 1) that would still mean a pregnancy lasting decades and 2) Abraham killed him......

atheists are such sad little liars.......

PostmodernProphet
12-19-2018, 09:58 AM
This is very learned stuff, Kudzu. I'm interested and impressed, but what, if you don't mind my asking, is your purpose here? Are you meaning to show up the pretentions of the Fundamentalists, or is there some other plan?

she's here to sucker in ignorant people such as yourself who are stupid enough to believe what she posts.....

PostmodernProphet
12-19-2018, 10:01 AM
https://www.deliriumsrealm.com/genesis-creation/

an atheist obtaining her theological info from a web site that manages a demon database?.......you can't make this shit up.......

kudzu
12-19-2018, 10:08 AM
sure, except 1) that would still mean a pregnancy lasting decades and 2) Abraham killed him......

atheists are such sad little liars.......

Sara wasn't an old woman.. Their counting method was based on 6 not 10 so all that was an early scribal error. People married in their teens, started families and to live to 50 was a long life.. To live to 70 or 80 was to live to a great age.

The Bible is much bigger and more interesting than you are willing to give credit.

Strange as it may seem, the same old sin of deception raises its ugly head for the third time in chapter 26 of Genesis. If nothing else proves it, this does—Isaac is a son of his father. Frightened concerning his own safety, Isaac succumbs to the temptation to pass off his wife as his sister. In doing this he was willing to risk Rebekah’s purity as the price for his personal protection.

The similarities between this sin of Isaac and that of his father Abraham are numerous. Both sinned in the presence of Abimelech, and both were rebuked by the ruler of the Philistines. Both had a beautiful wife and feared for their own safety, thinking that they might be killed so that someone could marry their wife. Both lied by saying that their wife was their sister. It would also appear that neither Abraham nor Isaac recognized the gravity of their sin or fully repented of it.

The differences between the sin of Abraham and that of Isaac cannot be overlooked. These differences verify the fact that two different deceptions took place in the land of the Philistines: one by Abraham and the other by his son. There seems to be little doubt that there are two different “Abimelechs” in these chapters of Genesis.

Many years had passed since Abraham stood without adequate excuse before Abimelech. We would be on safe ground to assume that the term “Abimelech” is a title of office, like “Pharaoh,” rather than a given name. The same could be said for the term “Phicol.” Another consideration is that sons were often named after their grandfathers.219 Either of these possibilities would readily explain the fact that the names “Abimelech” and “Phicol” (cf. verse 26) are found in chapter 26 as well as in chapter 20.

Abraham’s policy of deception was just that: a policy established before he entered into any danger (Genesis 12:11-13; 20:13). From the very outset Abraham introduced Sarah as his sister. Isaac, however, waited until he was approached concerning Rebekah. At this point his confidence left him, and he resorted to a lie:

https://bible.org/seriespage/27-isaac-walks-his-father-s-steps-genesis-261-35

kudzu
12-19-2018, 10:10 AM
really?.....because you just claimed Abraham killed him......

There are many, many different accounts.. just like Israel and Judah had separate and different creation accounts. The point is that its far more complicated and fluid than the KJV.

kudzu
12-19-2018, 10:12 AM
This is very learned stuff, Kudzu. I'm interested and impressed, but what, if you don't mind my asking, is your purpose here? Are you meaning to show up the pretentions of the Fundamentalists, or is there some other plan?

That there is MORE to history than the Jewish account.

For instance, the Canaanites were more urban and prosperous than their poor neighbors.. and the demonization of them indicates jealousy and rivalry.

PostmodernProphet
12-19-2018, 10:20 AM
Their counting method was based on 6 not 10

lol....


Sara wasn't an old woman


Genesis 18:10 Then one of them said, “I will surely return to you about this time next year, and Sarah your wife will have a son.”

Now Sarah was listening at the entrance to the tent, which was behind him. 11 Abraham and Sarah were already very old, and Sarah was past the age of childbearing. 12 So Sarah laughed to herself as she thought, “After I am worn out and my lord is old, will I now have this pleasure?”

PostmodernProphet
12-19-2018, 10:28 AM
There are many, many different accounts.. just like Israel and Judah had separate and different creation accounts. The point is that its far more complicated and fluid than the KJV.

sure.....there's the one in the bible and all the shit made up by atheists like yourself........many different accounts.....

kudzu
12-19-2018, 04:16 PM
sure.....there's the one in the bible and all the shit made up by atheists like yourself........many different accounts.....

Abimelech (father of the king), the name of several Philistine kings, was probably a common title of these kings, like that of Pharaoh among the Egyptians and that of Caesar and Augustus among the Romans.

What are you afraid of?

PostmodernProphet
12-19-2018, 04:20 PM
What are you afraid of?

someone might be stupid enough to believe your shit..........

kudzu
12-19-2018, 04:21 PM
Scholars now realise that there were three main sources, or authors, for the Book of Genesis. There are two creation stories in Genesis because two different sources, the Yahwist and the Priestly Source each wrote his own story.

The Yahwist wrote the second creation story (Genesis 2:4b-20) during the ninth century BCE, based on earlier Judahite traditions. The Priestly Source wrote what is now the first creation story (Genesis 1:!-2:4a) during the sixth-century-BCE Babylonian Exile, based on traditions he found among the Babylonians.

It appears the Priestly Source was prevented from removing the earlier tradition or found it too difficult, since the Yahwist creation story more or less continues all the way to Noah. Instead, he simply added his own version at the beginning of Genesis.

kudzu
12-19-2018, 04:34 PM
someone might be stupid enough to believe your shit..........

Devoted religious scholars have spent a lifetime studying scripture, geography, ancient texts, history and archaeology, but you know more.

PostmodernProphet
12-19-2018, 04:41 PM
Devoted religious scholars have spent a lifetime studying scripture, geography, ancient texts, history and archaeology, but you know more.

you aren't quoting devoted religious scholars......you're quoting atheists.......though to be honest, you haven't quoted anyone who says that the psalms were copies of Ugarit texts......that was obviously your own random musings.......

PostmodernProphet
12-19-2018, 04:47 PM
Abimelech (father of the king), the name of several Philistine kings, was probably a common title of these kings, like that of Pharaoh among the Egyptians and that of Caesar and Augustus among the Romans.


so the one who tried to take Sarah may have been different than the one who was Isaac's father who tried to take Rachel who obviously wasn't really there because she was married to Isaac who was actually dead.......got it....

Ralph
12-19-2018, 10:30 PM
Moses didn't write the Pentateusch.

In the original story of Isaac Abraham killed Isaac on the sacrificial altar... and in a third version Isaac is killed and resurrected.

https://thetorah.com/the-sacrifice-of-isaac-in-context/

https://www.sefaria.org/sheets/67097?lang=bi

Sounds much like CULTISM. The real problem is your lack of faith.....not the historical accuracy of Bible....you promote the idea, void of any evidence other than opinion that the Holy Bible is not based upon truth, you are attempting to justify your non-belief by creating an entirely different story line based not upon archaeology but MYTH. You bring up (cherry pick) a few passages loosely based upon the scriptures found in the Holy Scriptures and then claim that your "imagination" is superior to the actual record (confirmed by history actual in the science of archaeology) found in the Bible.


When you can disprove one Book, Chapter or Verse found in the Holy Scripture through History Actual and or Applied Science. Come back. ;) You can present all the different versions you want....but that does not make them TRUE. The Bible has withstood the test of time and is still unbroken. When you can't FIND evidence....that lack of evidence does not test truth. Nothing confirms the existence of nothing.

kudzu
12-19-2018, 10:39 PM
Sounds much like CULTISM. The real problem is your lack of faith.....not the historical accuracy of Bible....you promote the idea, void of any evidence other than opinion that the Holy Bible is not based upon truth, you are attempting to justify your non-belief by creating an entirely different story line based not upon archaeology but MYTH. You bring up (cherry pick) a few passages loosely based upon the scriptures found in the Holy Scriptures and then claim that your "imagination" is superior to the actual record (confirmed by history actual in the science of archaeology) found in the Bible.


When you can disprove one Book, Chapter or Verse found in the Holy Scripture through History Actual and or Applied Science. Come back. ;) You can present all the different versions you want....but that does not make them TRUE. The Bible has withstood the test of time and is still unbroken. When you can't FIND evidence....that lack of evidence does not test truth. Nothing confirms the existence of nothing.


Do you believe that Moses wrote the Pentateusch?

Archaeology and science do NOT confirm the Bible myths which were written as didactic literature.. They were NOT written as history.. The were written for spiritual contemplation.

Ralph
12-20-2018, 11:28 AM
Do you believe that Moses wrote the Pentateusch?

Archaeology and science do NOT confirm the Bible myths which were written as didactic literature.. They were NOT written as history.. The were written for spiritual contemplation.

As I said.....The "Science" of Archaeology can only CONFRIM something when something is found. Its not a negative science. We have not found, X, Y, Z thus because we have not found them this proves they never existed? LMAO:laugh: I believe what the Bible declares....it declares that Moses was the author of the 1st 5 books of the Holy Bible, "And Moses wrote all the words of the LORD." -- Ex.24:4

Simply because You have the opinion that the Holy Bible is not INSPIRED works from the God of Creation does not confirm anything. When you actually FIND some archaeological evidence instead of claiming because NOTHING WAS FOUND this somehow discredits the actual record of the Holy Scriptures....especially when the Prima Facie evidence confirms the truth found in the Holy Bible. When and where SOMETHING has been found that evidence has never debunked the Holy Bible....the Bible stand unbroken via actual evidence. Thus.....why should I not believe the parts of the Bible where nothing has been found to discredit it? Its the same principle used in a court of law.....something is true when the Prima Facie evidence points to truth beyond the reason of doubt UNTIL....objective evidence is presented to discredit the prima facie evidence.

There is a TEST found in the Bible to assure truth where the scriptures are found, "But the prophet who presumes to speak a word in MY NAME (such as the false prophet Muhammad did), which I have not commanded him to speak or speaks the words of another (g)od….that prophet shall die." -- Deut. 18:20. Muhammad did die and its confirmed by history actual. Jesus did not, he ascended.


The religion of Islam is filled with false premises with no logical or reasonable method of conformation....other than BLIND FAITH. Example: Two contradictory positions. 1. God is infallible in delivering inspired revelations to mankind. 2. God is not capable of making sure that His Word is comprehended correctly. You will find these contradictionsbook written by Dr. A. S. Hashim titled Iman Basic Beliefs (Pages 45-46). Basically Islam does not know what is inspired and what is false.

kudzu
12-20-2018, 11:55 AM
As I said.....The "Science" of Archaeology can only CONFRIM something when something is found. Its not a negative science. We have not found, X, Y, Z thus because we have not found them this proves they never existed? LMAO:laugh: I believe what the Bible declares....it declares that Moses was the author of the 1st 5 books of the Holy Bible, "And Moses wrote all the words of the LORD." -- Ex.24:4

Simply because You have the opinion that the Holy Bible is not INSPIRED works from the God of Creation does not confirm anything. When you actually FIND some archaeological evidence instead of claiming because NOTHING WAS FOUND this somehow discredits the actual record of the Holy Scriptures....especially when the Prima Facie evidence confirms the truth found in the Holy Bible. When and where SOMETHING has been found that evidence has never debunked the Holy Bible....the Bible stand unbroken via actual evidence. Thus.....why should I not believe the parts of the Bible where nothing has been found to discredit it? Its the same principle used in a court of law.....something is true when the Prima Facie evidence points to truth beyond the reason of doubt UNTIL....objective evidence is presented to discredit the prima facie evidence.

There is a TEST found in the Bible to assure truth where the scriptures are found, "But the prophet who presumes to speak a word in MY NAME (such as the false prophet Muhammad did), which I have not commanded him to speak or speaks the words of another (g)od….that prophet shall die." -- Deut. 18:20. Muhammad did die and its confirmed by history actual. Jesus did not, he ascended.


The religion of Islam is filled with false premises with no logical or reasonable method of conformation....other than BLIND FAITH. Example: Two contradictory positions. 1. God is infallible in delivering inspired revelations to mankind. 2. God is not capable of making sure that His Word is comprehended correctly. You will find these contradictionsbook written by Dr. A. S. Hashim titled Iman Basic Beliefs (Pages 45-46). Basically Islam does not know what is inspired and what is false.

There is not a scholar alive who believes that Moses wrote the pentateusch.

Islam believes the OT myths and Bible stories... They even believe in Noah's Ark and the Exodus.

Most of the prophets died........

Phantasmal
12-20-2018, 12:14 PM
Do you believe that Moses wrote the Pentateusch?

Archaeology and science do NOT confirm the Bible myths which were written as didactic literature.. They were NOT written as history.. The were written for spiritual contemplation.
They are much like Aesop’s Fables many of them, to teach a lesson.

Minister of Truth
12-20-2018, 12:24 PM
There is not a scholar alive who believes that Moses wrote the pentateusch.

Islam believes the OT myths and Bible stories... They even believe in Noah's Ark and the Exodus.

Most of the prophets died........

No one cares what Islam believes.

kudzu
12-20-2018, 12:36 PM
No one cares what Islam believes.

Perhaps you don't care, but they believe in the same patriarch as the Christians and Jews.