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Guno צְבִי
12-10-2018, 03:02 PM
Isaiah 53 itself, some preliminary issues must be considered. First is the issue of circular reasoning. Even if we interpret the chapter as the Christians do (forgetting for a minute the mistranslations and distortions of context which will be noted below), the most that could be said is this: Isaiah 53 is about someone who dies for the sins of others. People may have seen Jesus die, but did anyone see him die as an atonement for the sins of others? Of course not; this is simply the meaning which the New Testament gives to his death. Only if you already accept the New Testament teaching that his death had a non-visible, spiritual significance can you than go back to Isaiah and say, “see – the Prophet predicted what I already believe.” Isaiah 53, then, is in reality no “proof” at all, but rather a contrived confirmation for someone who has already chosen Christianity.

Second (and consistent with all Jewish teaching at the time), Jesus’ own disciples didn’t view Isaiah 53 as a messianic prophecy. For example, after Peter identifies Jesus as the Messiah (Matt. 16:16), he is informed that Jesus will be killed (Matt. 16:21). His response: “God forbid it, lord! This shall never happen to you” (Matt. 16:22). See, also, Mk. 9:31-32; Mk. 16:10-11; Jn. 20:9. Even Jesus didn’t see Isaiah 53 as crucial to his messianic claims – why else did he call the Jews children of the devil for not believing in him before the alleged resurrection (Jn. 8:39-47)? And why did he later request that God “remove this cup from me” (Mk. 14:36) – didn’t he know that a “removal of the cup” would violate the gentile understanding of Isaiah 53?

And third, even if we accept the gentile Christian interpretation of Isaiah 53, where is it indicated (either in Isaiah 53 or anywhere else in our Jewish Scriptures) that you must believe in this “Messiah” to get the benefits?

B. Context
Since any portion of Scripture is only understood properly when viewed in the context of God’s revelation as a whole, some additional study will be helpful before you “tackle” Isaiah 53.

Look at the setting in which Isaiah 53 occurs. Earlier on in Isaiah, God had predicted exile and calamity for the Jewish people. Chapter 53, however, occurs in the midst of Isaiah’s “Messages of Consolation“, which tell of the restoration of Israel to a position of prominence and a vindication of their status as God’s chosen people. In chapter 52, for example, Israel is described as “oppressed without cause” (v.4) and “taken away” (v.5), yet God promises a brighter future ahead, one in which Israel will again prosper and be redeemed in the sight of all the nations (v.1-3, 8-12).

Chapter 54 further elaborates upon the redemption which awaits the nation of Israel. Following immediately after chapter 53’s promise of a reward for God’s servant in return for all of its suffering (53:10-12), chapter 54 describes an unequivocally joyous fate for the Jewish people. Speaking clearly of the Jewish people and their exalted status (even according to all Christian commentaries), chapter 54 ends as follows: “`This is the heritage of the servants of the L-rd and their vindication is from Me,’ declares the L-rd.”

C. Isaiah 53
In the original Hebrew texts, there are no chapter divisions, and Jew and Christian alike agree that chapter 53 is actually a continuation of the prophecy which begins at 52:13. Accordingly, our analysis must begin at that verse.

52:13 “Behold, My servant will prosper.” Israel in the singular is called God’s servant throughout Isaiah, both explicitly (Isa. 41:8-9; 44:1-2; 45:4; 48:20; 49:3) and implicitly (Isa. 42:19-20; 43:10) – the Messiah is not. Other references to Israel as God’s servant include Jer. 30:10 (note that in Jer. 30:17, the servant Israel is regarded by the nations as an outcast, forsaken by God, as in Isa. 53:4); Jer. 46:27-28; Ps. 136:22; Lk. 1:54. ALSO: Given the Christian view that Jesus is God, is God His own servant?

52:15 – 53:1 “So shall he (the servant) startle many nations, the kings will stand speechless; For that which had not been told them they shall see and that which they had not heard shall they ponder. Who would believe what we have heard?” Quite clearly, the nations and their kings will be amazed at what happens to the “servant of the L-rd,” and they will say “who would believe what we have heard?“. 52:15 tells us explicitly that it is the nations of the world, the gentiles, who are doing the talking in Isaiah 53. See, also, Micah 7:12-17, which speaks of the nations’ astonishment when the Jewish people again blossom in the Messianic age.

53:1 “And to whom has the arm of the L-rd been revealed?” In Isaiah, and throughout our Scriptures, God’s “arm” refers to the physical redemption of the Jewish people from the oppression of other nations (see, e.g., Isa. 52:8-12; Isa. 63:12; Deut. 4:34; Deut. 7:19; Ps. 44:3).

53:3 “Despised and rejected of men.” While this is clearly applicable to Israel (see Isa. 60:15; Ps. 44:13-14), it cannot be reconciled with the New Testament account of Jesus, a man who was supposedly “praised by all” (Lk. 4:14-15) and followed by multitudes (Matt. 4:25), who would later acclaim him as a prophet upon his triumphal entry into Jerusalem (Matt. 21:9-11). Even as he was taken to be crucified, a multitude bemoaned his fate (Lk. 23:27). Jesus had to be taken by stealth, as the rulers feared “a riot of the people” (Mk. 14:1-2).

53:3 “A man of pains and acquainted with disease.” Israel’s adversities are frequently likened to sickness – see, e.g., Isa. 1:5-6; Jer. 10:19; Jer 30:12.

53:4 “Surely our diseases he carried and our pains he bore.” In Matt. 8:17, this is correctly translated, and said to be literally (not spiritually) fulfilled in Jesus’ healing of the sick, a reading inconsistent with the Christian mistranslation of 53:4 itself.

53:4 “Yet we ourselves esteemed him stricken, smitten of G- D and afflicted.” See Jer. 30:17 – of God’s servant Israel (30:10), it is said by the nations, “It is Zion; no one cares for her.”

53:5 “But he was wounded from (NOTE: not for) our transgressions, he was crushed from (AGAIN: not for) our iniquities.” Whereas the nations had thought the Servant (Israel) was undergoing Divine retribution for its sins (53:4), they now realize that the Servant’s sufferings stemmed from their actions and sinfulness. This theme is further developed throughout our Jewish Scriptures – see, e.g., Jer. 50:7; Jer. 10:25. ALSO: Note that the Messiah “shall not fail nor be crushed till he has set the right in the earth” (Isa. 42:4).

53:7 “He was oppressed and he was afflicted, yet he did not open his mouth. Like a lamb that is led to slaughter, and like a sheep that is silent before its shearers, so he did not open his mouth.” Note that in the prior chapter (Isa. 52), Israel is said to have been oppressed and taken away without cause (52:4-5). A similar theme is developed in Psalm 44, wherein King David speaks of Israel’s faithfulness even in the face of gentile oppression (44:17- 18) and describes Israel as “sheep to be slaughtered” in the midst of the unfaithful gentile nations (44:22,11).

Regarding the claim that Jesus “did not open his mouth” when faced with oppression and affliction, see Matt. 27:46, Jn. 18:23, 36-37.

53:8 “From dominion and judgement he was taken away.” Note the correct translation of the Hebrew. The Christians are forced to mistranslate, since – by Jesus’ own testimony – he never had any rights to rulership or judgement, at least not on the “first coming.” See, e.g., Jn. 3:17; Jn. 8:15; Jn. 12:47; Jn. 18:36.

53:8 “He was cut off out of the land of the living.”

53:9 “His grave was assigned with wicked men.” See Ez. 37:11-14, wherein Israelis described as “cut off” and God promises to open its “graves” and bring Israel back into its own land. Other examples of figurative deaths include Ex. 10:17; 2 Sam. 9:8; 2 Sam. 16:9.

53:8 “From my peoples’ sins, there was injury to them.” Here the Prophet makes absolutely clear, to anyone familiar with Biblical Hebrew, that the oppressed Servant is a collective Servant, not a single individual. The Hebrew word “lamoh“, when used in our Scriptures, always means “to them” never “to him” and may be found, for example, in Psalm 99:7 – “They kept his testimonies, and the statute that He gave to them.”

53:9 “And with the rich in his deaths.” Perhaps King James should have changed the original Hebrew, which again makes clear that we are dealing with a collective Servant, i.e., Israel, which will “come to life” when the exile ends (Ez. 37:14).

53:9 “He had done no violence.” See Matt. 21:12; Mk. 11:15-16; Lk. 19:45; Lk. 19:27; Matt. 10:34 and Lk. 12:51; then judge for yourself whether this passage is truly consistent with the New Testament account of Jesus.

53:10 “He shall see his seed.” The Hebrew word for “seed“, used in this verse, always refers to physical descendants in our Jewish Scriptures. See, e.g., Gen. 12:7; Gen. 15:13; Gen. 46:6; Ex. 28:43. A different word, generally translated as “sons“, is used to refer to spiritual descendants (see Deut. 14:1, e.g.).

53:10 “He will prolong his days.” Not only did Jesus die young, but how could the days be prolonged of someone who is alleged to be God?

53:11 “With his knowledge the righteous one, my Servant, will cause many to be just.” Note again the correct translation: the Servant will cause many to be just, he will not “justify the many.” The Jewish mission is to serve as a “light to the nations” which will ultimately lead the world to a knowledge of the one true God, this both by example (Deut. 4:5-8; Zech. 8:23) and by instructing the nations in God’s Law (Isa. 2:3-4; Micah 4:2-3).

53:12 “Therefore, I will divide a portion to him with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the mighty.” If Jesus is God, does the idea of reward have any meaning? Is it not rather the Jewish people – who righteously bore the sins of the world and yet remained faithful to God (Ps. 44) – who will be rewarded, and this in the manner described more fully in Isaiah chapters 52 and 54?

Guno צְבִי
12-10-2018, 03:03 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tKzbKaScNbQ

PostmodernProphet
12-10-2018, 05:09 PM
Isaiah 53 is about someone who dies for the sins of others

sounds about right to me......


didn’t he know that a “removal of the cup” would violate the gentile understanding of Isaiah 53?

good thing he went through with it then.....


“Despised and rejected of men.”......it cannot be reconciled with the New Testament account of Jesus, a man who was supposedly “praised by all
you mean the guy they whipped, stabbed and nailed to a block of wood?.....


Jesus had to be taken by stealth

was he tried by Pontius Pilate by stealth?.......was he crucified by stealth?......


But he was wounded from (NOTE: not for) our transgressions, he was crushed from (AGAIN: not for) our iniquities.” Whereas the nations had thought the Servant (Israel) was undergoing Divine retribution for its sins (53:4), they now realize that the Servant’s sufferings stemmed from their actions and sinfulness.

Kudzu made the same strange claim......only an atheist would try to argue that "wounded for our transgressions" must be translated as "wounded for their transgressions"......

Minister of Truth
12-10-2018, 05:27 PM
I like that Goony set-up an escape clause in his OP. When he loses confidence in his argument, he can just fall back on "Isaiah is mistranslated."

PostmodernProphet
12-10-2018, 09:50 PM
53:5 “But he was wounded from (NOTE: not for) our transgressions, he was crushed from (AGAIN: not for) our iniquities.”

actually, not true.....it is neither "from" or "for"......it is "of"......."transgressions of us".......it is NOT "by" our transgressions......it is "because of"


and·he
מְ חֹ לָ ל
mchll
being-wounded
מִ פְּ שָׁ עֵנוּ
m·phsho·nu
from·transgression-of·us
מְ דֻ כָּ א
mdka
being-crushed
מֵ עֲנֹ תֵ ינוּ
m·ounthi·nu
from·depravities-of·us


http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/OTpdf/isa53.pdf

kudzu
12-11-2018, 04:15 AM
sounds about right to me......



good thing he went through with it then.....


you mean the guy they whipped, stabbed and nailed to a block of wood?.....



was he tried by Pontius Pilate by stealth?.......was he crucified by stealth?......



Kudzu made the same strange claim......only an atheist would try to argue that "wounded for our transgressions" must be translated as "wounded for their transgressions"......

Its not a strange claim at all.. All the way thru the OT Israel is referred to the servant of god...

The new testament writers were sort of gilding the lily.. to make Jesus the Jewish Messiah.. They tweaked the interpretation to make Jesus fit the prophesies ..

Isaiah was probably talking about Cyrus the King of Persia who ended the Babylonian captivity and decreed that the Temple in Jerusalem be rebuilt..

PostmodernProphet
12-11-2018, 06:08 AM
Its not a strange claim at all.

I know, right?......we do it all the time.......in fact, when I say you are a mindless atheist you should interpret it as I love you for your religious beliefs......everything should ultimately be understood as the opposite of what it appears...

kudzu
12-11-2018, 06:50 AM
I know, right?......we do it all the time.......in fact, when I say you are a mindless atheist you should interpret it as I love you for your religious beliefs......everything should ultimately be understood as the opposite of what it appears...

Cyrus was considered the first Messiah.. and he was anointed unlike Jesus.

PostmodernProphet
12-11-2018, 06:54 AM
Cyrus was considered the first Messiah.. and he was anointed unlike Jesus.

you know, from here on, whenever you post some irrelevant piece of crap I'm just going to use one of these handy images.....
https://previews.123rf.com/images/lkeskinen/lkeskinen1707/lkeskinen170714899/82980657-irrelevant-rubber-stamp.jpg

kudzu
12-11-2018, 07:03 AM
you know, from here on, whenever you post some irrelevant piece of crap I'm just going to use one of these handy images.....
https://previews.123rf.com/images/lkeskinen/lkeskinen1707/lkeskinen170714899/82980657-irrelevant-rubber-stamp.jpg

The Old Trestament is not irrevelant. You have so many preconceived ideas that you are reading scripture thru a filter.

The messiah they foretold was an annointed warrior king who would rescue the Jews from their enemies.. which Cyrus did.. Jesus did not.

PostmodernProphet
12-11-2018, 07:12 AM
The Old Trestament is not irrevelant.

I didn't say it was........your atheist ramblings of mind jelly are irrelevant.......Jesus is the King who has rescued all of us from the enemy........is some Jew named Cyrus even in the OT?......I've never heard God mention him......

kudzu
12-11-2018, 07:20 AM
I didn't say it was........your atheist ramblings of mind jelly are irrelevant.......Jesus is the King who has rescued all of us from the enemy........is some Jew named Cyrus even in the OT?......I've never heard God mention him......

The messiah they foretold was an anointed warrior king who would rescue the Jews from their enemies.. which Cyrus did.. Jesus did not.

Cyrus is mentioned over 30 times in the Bible.

PostmodernProphet
12-11-2018, 07:30 AM
The messiah they foretold was an anointed warrior king who would rescue the Jews from their enemies.. which Cyrus did.. Jesus did not.

Cyrus is mentioned over 30 times in the Bible.

was Cyrus a shoot from the stump of Jesse?.....

kudzu
12-11-2018, 07:45 AM
was Cyrus a shoot from the stump of Jesse?.....

The ‘sprouting stump’ reassured them that the remnant of Judah, Jerusalem itself, would survive Assyria’s siege. The Assyrians got what they had coming to them and Cyrus restored the Jews and the Temple.

Notice that Cyrus us mentioned 30 times in scripture and often in Isaiah.

PostmodernProphet
12-11-2018, 07:52 AM
The ‘sprouting stump’ reassured them that the remnant of Judah, Jerusalem itself, would survive Assyria’s siege.


an obvious lie.....the shoot from the stump was the Messiah, not the remnant of Judah......by now you should realize that your attempts to rewrite scripture aren't going to work......


Notice that Cyrus us mentioned 30 times in scripture and often in Isaiah.

so was Nebuchadnezzar......he wasn't the Messiah either.....

kudzu
12-11-2018, 07:57 AM
an obvious lie.....the shoot from the stump was the Messiah, not the remnant of Judah......by now you should realize that your attempts to rewrite scripture aren't going to work......



so was Nebuchadnezzar......he wasn't the Messiah either.....

The Jews didn't consider Nebuchadnezzar an anointed Messiah..

The root of Jesse is the Jewish people....

The Root of Jesse

They will neither harm nor destroy on all My holy mountain, for the earth will be full of the knowledge of the LORD as the sea is full of water. 10On that day the root of Jesse will stand as a banner for the peoples. The nations will seek Him, and His place of rest will be glorious.

On that day the Lord will extend His hand a second time to recover the remnant of His people from Assyria, from Egypt, from Pathros, from Cush, from Elam, from Shinar, from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea.…

kudzu
12-11-2018, 08:30 AM
King James Bible

And the remnant that is escaped of the house of Judah shall again take root downward, and bear fruit upward:

Isaiah 11:10

CFM
12-11-2018, 08:35 AM
Its not a strange claim at all.. All the way thru the OT Israel is referred to the servant of god...

The new testament writers were sort of gilding the lily.. to make Jesus the Jewish Messiah.. They tweaked the interpretation to make Jesus fit the prophesies ..

Isaiah was probably talking about Cyrus the King of Persia who ended the Babylonian captivity and decreed that the Temple in Jerusalem be rebuilt..

There you go pretending to be a religious expert again.

kudzu
12-11-2018, 08:48 AM
There you go pretending to be a religious expert again.

One could probably study another lifetime and not be an expert, but the remnant of Judah is clearly defined as those Jews who returned from Babylon under King Cyrus.

CFM
12-11-2018, 10:57 AM
One could probably study another lifetime and not be an expert, but the remnant of Judah is clearly defined as those Jews who returned from Babylon under King Cyrus.

Then you should stop pretending to be one and making claims as if you believe you are.

PostmodernProphet
12-11-2018, 11:22 AM
King James Bible

And the remnant that is escaped of the house of Judah shall again take root downward, and bear fruit upward:

Isaiah 11:10
not the Messiah.....

PostmodernProphet
12-11-2018, 11:23 AM
the remnant of Judah is clearly defined as those Jews who returned from Babylon under King Cyrus.

and the shoot out of the stump of Jesse is the Messiah.........just trying to drag your sorry ass back to the topic being discussed........

PostmodernProphet
12-11-2018, 11:24 AM
One could probably study another lifetime and not be an expert

and you've managed to accomplish it with no study at all.......kudos to kudzu......

kudzu
12-11-2018, 12:54 PM
and you've managed to accomplish it with no study at all.......kudos to kudzu......

Do you know what Lashon Hara means?

PostmodernProphet
12-11-2018, 03:51 PM
Do you know what Lashon Hara means?

your mother's maiden name?......

kudzu
12-11-2018, 03:58 PM
duplicate

kudzu
12-11-2018, 04:00 PM
your mother's maiden name?......

The Hebrew term lashon hara (or loshon horo) "evil tongue" is the halakhic term for derogatory speech about another person.

Lashon hara differs from defamation in that its focus is on the use of true speech for a wrongful purpose, rather than falsehood and harm arising.

Speech is considered to be lashon hara (detraction) if it says something negative about a person or party, is not seriously intended to correct or improve a negative situation, and is true.

Statements that fit this description are considered to be lashon hara, regardless of the method of communication that is used, whether it is through face-to-face conversation, a letter, telephone, or email, or even body language.

Lashon hara (lit. "evil tongue") is considered to be a very serious sin in the Jewish tradition. The communicator of Lashon Hara violates the prohibition in Leviticus 19:16.

My mother's maiden name is the same as Braveheart.

PostmodernProphet
12-11-2018, 04:25 PM
The Hebrew term lashon hara (or loshon horo) "evil tongue" is the halakhic term for derogatory speech about another person.

Lashon hara differs from defamation in that its focus is on the use of true speech for a wrongful purpose, rather than falsehood and harm arising.

Speech is considered to be lashon hara (detraction) if it says something negative about a person or party, is not seriously intended to correct or improve a negative situation, and is true.

Statements that fit this description are considered to be lashon hara, regardless of the method of communication that is used, whether it is through face-to-face conversation, a letter, telephone, or email, or even body language.

Lashon hara (lit. "evil tongue") is considered to be a very serious sin in the Jewish tradition. The communicator of Lashon Hara violates the prohibition in Leviticus 19:16.

My mother's maiden name is the same as Braveheart.
why the fuck do you post irrelevant shit like this?....

kudzu
12-11-2018, 04:28 PM
why the fuck do you post irrelevant shit like this?....

Maybe you should consider "evil tongue".

PostmodernProphet
12-11-2018, 08:27 PM
Maybe you should consider "evil tongue".

\spurns kudzu's sexual advances......