What is the difference between the old and new covenant ? Frank

[Wolverine]

Am I bound by the old Testament to kill homosexuals or are we in a period of grace.

[Jarod]

Am I bound by the old Testament to kill homosexuals or are we in a period of grace.

Under the new testament we are not bound to hate, we are bound by love. Jesus died for that.

[Frank Apisa]

Am I bound by the old Testament to kill homosexuals or are we in a period of grace.

You tell me, Wolverine.

Is there a particular sentence in "the new covenant" that says you are to disregard the wishes of the god of the Bible?

[Frank Apisa]

Under the new testament we are not bound to hate, we are bound by love. Jesus died for that.

Under the New Testament...you are bound to accept the words of Jesus.

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the law and the prophets. I have come, not abolish them, but to fulfill them. Of this much I assure you: UNTIL HEAVEN AND EARTH PASS AWAY, NOT THE SMALLEST LETTER OF THE LAW, NOT THE SMALLEST PART OF A LETTER, SHALL BE DONE AWAY WITH UNTIL IT ALL COME TRUE."

Matthew 5: 17ff

Nearly as I can tell...the Earth has not passed away...so ALL of the laws are still in effect. Leviticus...is the law.

Leviticus tells us what offends the god of the Bible...and how much it offends it.


"If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them shall be
put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their
lives." Leviticus 20:13

[Guno צְבִי]

Am I bound by the old Testament to kill homosexuals or are we in a period of grace.

There is no "new" testament

The Formation and Creation of the Bible's New Testament


http://www.humanreligions.info/creation_of_the_new_testament.html


And the goyim's understanding of the Hebrew Tanakh is laughable at best

The Tanakh has nothing to do with the goyim

[Wolverine]

You tell me, Wolverine.

Is there a particular sentence in "the new covenant" that says you are to disregard the wishes of the god of the Bible?

Jesus himself disregarded the dietary laws, when he said it's not what goes into a mans mouth that defiles him but what comes out. Also did he not handle working on the Sabath?

[Guno צְבִי]

Under the New Testament...you are bound to accept the words of Jesus.

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the law and the prophets. I have come, not abolish them, but to fulfill them. Of this much I assure you: UNTIL HEAVEN AND EARTH PASS AWAY, NOT THE SMALLEST LETTER OF THE LAW, NOT THE SMALLEST PART OF A LETTER, SHALL BE DONE AWAY WITH UNTIL IT ALL COME TRUE."

Matthew 5: 17ff

Nearly as I can tell...the Earth has not passed away...so ALL of the laws are still in effect. Leviticus...is the law.

Leviticus tells us what offends the god of the Bible...and how much it offends it.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lgen7qb9c1s

[Wolverine]

There is no "new" testament

The Formation and Creation of the Bible's New Testament


http://www.humanreligions.info/creation_of_the_new_testament.html


And the goyim's understanding of the Hebrew Tanakh is laughable at best

The Tanakh has nothing to do with the goyim

Whatever, we are going under the understanding that the new testament is real because it is.

[Wolverine]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lgen7qb9c1s

Yeah you posted this garbage by a non believing Jew another time!

[Lightbringer]

Am I bound by the old Testament to kill homosexuals or are we in a period of grace.

Are you a christian? Shut up.

[Wolverine]

Under the new testament we are not bound to hate, we are bound by love. Jesus died for that.

What is your point?

[Guno צְבִי]

Jesus himself disregarded the dietary laws, when he said it's not what goes into a mans mouth that defiles him but what comes out. Also did he not handle working on the Sabath?

jews and muslims agree


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X1R4cO2GBSE

[Frank Apisa]

Jesus himself disregarded the dietary laws, when he said it's not what goes into a mans mouth that defiles him but what comes out. Also did he not handle working on the Sabath?

Whoa!

Are you saying Jesus lied when he said what he did in Matthew 5:17?

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the law and the prophets. I have come, not abolish them, but to fulfill them. Of this much I assure you: UNTIL HEAVEN AND EARTH PASS AWAY, NOT THE SMALLEST LETTER OF THE LAW, NOT THE SMALLEST PART OF A LETTER, SHALL BE DONE AWAY WITH UNTIL IT ALL COME TRUE."


Matthew 5: 17ff

[domer76]

Am I bound by the old Testament to kill homosexuals or are we in a period of grace.

The Old Testament tells you it’s OK to refuse service to gays. Show us that same sentiment in the NT.

[Wolverine]

Whoa!

Are you saying Jesus lied when he said what he did in Matthew 5:17?

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the law and the prophets. I have come, not abolish them, but to fulfill them. Of this much I assure you: UNTIL HEAVEN AND EARTH PASS AWAY, NOT THE SMALLEST LETTER OF THE LAW, NOT THE SMALLEST PART OF A LETTER, SHALL BE DONE AWAY WITH UNTIL IT ALL COME TRUE."


Matthew 5: 17ff

Jesus fulfilled the law!
We see the first pointer of how things have changed dramatically in Matthew 5:17 where Jesus says, “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.” So all the Old Testament finds its completion and fulfillment in Jesus — and that is a basic truth that a person needs to understand. Everything in the Old Testament was pointing toward Jesus as the Son of God incarnate, dying and rising to save his people. And, therefore, in his person, in his ministry, the whole Old Testament reaches a climax and is dramatically altered.

The Bible spells out many of the specifics of this dramatic alteration. For example, the book of Hebrews is probably the classic place for showing how the old covenant has become obsolete with the coming of the new covenant. Hebrews 8:13 says, “In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.” And, for example, the death of Jesus is the once-for-all sacrifice for sins so that the entire Old Testament sacrificial system of offering animals comes to an end.

Hebrews 7:27 and 9:12 say Jesus is the final Lamb of God. The whole Old Testament sacrificial system is over. It doesn’t apply anymore. Another example from Hebrews is that Jesus himself offers the sacrifice of himself and therefore Jesus is the final Priest. And you don’t need any more priests. And so the entire Old Testament priesthood is removed. It is over. We have one, new, final, eternal High Priest, Jesus Christ.

A third example is that Jesus saw himself as the new temple. “If you destroy this temple, I will build it in three days” (John 2:19). And he meant, I will rise from the dead in three days. So when the temple was destroyed in 70 AD, the place of worship for Christians was not destroyed, because we don’t have a place for worship that is limited geographically. We have Jesus. And any place Jesus is, we can worship.

So all of those specifics are how the old covenant was becoming obsolete. And dramatic changes came about and hundreds of commands in the Old Testament don’t apply to Christians anymore, because this new phase of redemptive history has come.

[Frank Apisa]

Jesus fulfilled the law!
We see the first pointer of how things have changed dramatically in Matthew 5:17 where Jesus says, “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.” So all the Old Testament finds its completion and fulfillment in Jesus — and that is a basic truth that a person needs to understand. Everything in the Old Testament was pointing toward Jesus as the Son of God incarnate, dying and rising to save his people. And, therefore, in his person, in his ministry, the whole Old Testament reaches a climax and is dramatically altered.

The Bible spells out many of the specifics of this dramatic alteration. For example, the book of Hebrews is probably the classic place for showing how the old covenant has become obsolete with the coming of the new covenant. Hebrews 8:13 says, “In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.” And, for example, the death of Jesus is the once-for-all sacrifice for sins so that the entire Old Testament sacrificial system of offering animals comes to an end.

Hebrews 7:27 and 9:12 say Jesus is the final Lamb of God. The whole Old Testament sacrificial system is over. It doesn’t apply anymore. Another example from Hebrews is that Jesus himself offers the sacrifice of himself and therefore Jesus is the final Priest. And you don’t need any more priests. And so the entire Old Testament priesthood is removed. It is over. We have one, new, final, eternal High Priest, Jesus Christ.

A third example is that Jesus saw himself as the new temple. “If you destroy this temple, I will build it in three days” (John 2:19). And he meant, I will rise from the dead in three days. So when the temple was destroyed in 70 AD, the place of worship for Christians was not destroyed, because we don’t have a place for worship that is limited geographically. We have Jesus. And any place Jesus is, we can worship.

So all of those specifics are how the old covenant was becoming obsolete. And dramatic changes came about and hundreds of commands in the Old Testament don’t apply to Christians anymore, because this new phase of redemptive history has come.

Just so I am sure I understand you...

...you are saying that Jesus lied...

...or you are saying that the Earth no longer exists.

Which is it?

If you could be specific...I'd appreciate it.

[Wolverine]

Just so I am sure I understand you...

...you are saying that Jesus lied...

...or you are saying that the Earth no longer exists.

Which is it?

If you could be specific...I'd appreciate it.

Can you read, I mean you posted many links, can you read what I posted, Jesus fulfilled the law! There is a new covenant, unrepentant homosexuals will be judged after they die.

[kudzu]

Jesus fulfilled the law!
We see the first pointer of how things have changed dramatically in Matthew 5:17 where Jesus says, “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.” So all the Old Testament finds its completion and fulfillment in Jesus — and that is a basic truth that a person needs to understand. Everything in the Old Testament was pointing toward Jesus as the Son of God incarnate, dying and rising to save his people. And, therefore, in his person, in his ministry, the whole Old Testament reaches a climax and is dramatically altered.

The Bible spells out many of the specifics of this dramatic alteration. For example, the book of Hebrews is probably the classic place for showing how the old covenant has become obsolete with the coming of the new covenant. Hebrews 8:13 says, “In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.” And, for example, the death of Jesus is the once-for-all sacrifice for sins so that the entire Old Testament sacrificial system of offering animals comes to an end.

Hebrews 7:27 and 9:12 say Jesus is the final Lamb of God. The whole Old Testament sacrificial system is over. It doesn’t apply anymore. Another example from Hebrews is that Jesus himself offers the sacrifice of himself and therefore Jesus is the final Priest. And you don’t need any more priests. And so the entire Old Testament priesthood is removed. It is over. We have one, new, final, eternal High Priest, Jesus Christ.

A third example is that Jesus saw himself as the new temple. “If you destroy this temple, I will build it in three days” (John 2:19). And he meant, I will rise from the dead in three days. So when the temple was destroyed in 70 AD, the place of worship for Christians was not destroyed, because we don’t have a place for worship that is limited geographically. We have Jesus. And any place Jesus is, we can worship.

So all of those specifics are how the old covenant was becoming obsolete. And dramatic changes came about and hundreds of commands in the Old Testament don’t apply to Christians anymore, because this new phase of redemptive history has come.

Leviticus was written during and after the Babylonian exile to keep the Jews separate from others. The laws and rituals are exclusive to them and gives them their identity.

[Frank Apisa]

Can you read, I mean you posted many links, can you read what I posted, Jesus fulfilled the law! There is a new covenant, unrepentant homosexuals will be judged after they die.

Yeah, I can read. I've read the Bible.

Can you read?

You are making stuff up out of nothing.

Jesus clearly is quoted as saying:

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the law and the prophets. I have come, not abolish them, but to fulfill them. Of this much I assure you: UNTIL HEAVEN AND EARTH PASS AWAY, NOT THE SMALLEST LETTER OF THE LAW, NOT THE SMALLEST PART OF A LETTER, SHALL BE DONE AWAY WITH UNTIL IT ALL COME TRUE."

Matthew 5: 17ff

Are you saying that the Earth has passed away????

Jesus H. Christ, Wolverine...it is there in black and white. I've even enlarged it for you.

If the Earth has not passed away...JESUS assures everyone that "...NOT THE SMALLEST LETTER OF THE LAW, NOT THE SMALLEST PART OF A LETTER" shall be done away with.

So...the law that men who engage in homosexual conduct are to be put to death...ACCORDING TO JESUS.

Don't quote me Paul...and suggest that Paul's word is more important than Jesus'...and suggest you are speaking for CHRISTIANITY in that.

[PostmodernProphet]

Leviticus was written during and after the Babylonian exile .

gosh, you're stupid........

[Frank Apisa]

All the crap about Christians not being subjected to old law actually comes about because of one incident.

The facts are these: Acts 15 deals with a meeting that took place in Jerusalem between the presbyters of the community church, Peter, Paul, Barnabas, possibly other unnamed apostles, and possibly lay members of the community. The purpose of the meeting was to discuss a controversy that had arisen among the converted Pharisees of Antioch—who were of the opinion that Christianity was a religion that should be open only to Jews. They were openly distrustful of Paul, who was intent on converting gentiles as well.

In any case, the subject controversy was that the Pharisees were especially troubled by the fact that Paul allowed gentile converts to come into the new religion without being circumcised—a compromise they thought would lead to greater and more troubling (for them) concessions to the law. In fact, the specific item on the agenda appears to have been the non-circumcision of Titus (later, St. Titus)—a Greek gentile convert who was a frequently companion to Paul on his travels among the gentiles.

The meeting, an important early Christian meeting, is not only mentioned by Luke in Acts 15, but also by Paul in his letter to the Galatians, Chapter 2 (particularly verses 1-10.)

Both Acts and Galatians indicate that the main instigation for the meeting was the question of whether or not the act of circumcision was a necessary requirement for gentile converts to the newly formed religion. The question of whether dietary restrictions should be imposed was quickly included…and while there are some differences of opinions as to how that last part was resolved, the “minutes” of the meeting (actually a letter to the Christian community in Antioch) indicate that some dietary obligations remained in effect.

In the letter, the group invokes the agreement of The Holy Spirit in the decision. Circumcision, it was decided, was definitely NOT a requirement for membership. The dietary resolution has some minor ambivalence. Galatians seems to indicate that no dietary restrictions were required of the new gentile converts, or at least, none are specifically mentioned. Acts 15: 23-29 specifically states that the letter which outlined the results of the deliberations included the following, “…it is the decision of the Holy Spirit, and ours too, that we will not lay upon you (gentile converts) any burden beyond that which is strictly necessary, namely, to abstain from meat sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals, and from illicit sexual union. You will be well advised to avoid these things.”

In any case, anyone who reads the material in Galatians or Acts as justification for divorcing Christianity from the Old Testament law really is stretching things a great deal. The deliberations seem to have been almost exclusively confined to considerations of circumcision and dietary laws.

But even if that stretch is deemed proper and reasonable (which intelligent, well-intentioned people can do), there is absolutely no logical way to suppose any perceived divorce from Old Testament law includes the right to suppose that the things that pleased or offended the god of the Bible as indicated in the Old Testament…no longer applied. If an orthodox Jew was obliged to accept that murder, stealing, fornicating and lusting offended the god of the Bible—Christians were also. If an orthodox Jew was obliged to accept that homosexuality offended the god—Christians are also.


My argument is: Okay, if you want to stretch the passage in Acts to mean that “the law” no longer applies to Christians (an unrealistic stretch, in my opinion) you can logically argue that Christians are under no obligation to put homosexuals to death. But you cannot, on the basis of that stretch, logically argue that homosexual activity is not an abomination in the eyes of the god of the Bible.

NOTE: My personal opinion is that the best guess that can be made about the Bible is that it is a self-serving history of the early Hebrew people interspersed with a fanciful religious mythology. My opinion is that the best guess that can be made about the religious aspects of the Bible is that the people writing the material—the people inventing the god—put their prejudices into the mouth of the god they invented. Almost all of the anger, hatred, and prejudice against homosexuals today in our country has its genesis in the biblical mythology—and has absolutely no place in the hearts and minds of people supposedly as intelligent as we. It is my opinion that the unwarranted prejudice against homosexuals should end not because people are able to justify disregarding the more obviously silly ravings of what almost certainly is a mythical god…but because we, as an intelligent and basically fair species, should see such prejudice for the ignorance it is.

Said another way: Get off your bullshit about not allowing same-sex people to marry…or for “Christians” to indulge their blind guesses by refusing to provide services to gays

[PostmodernProphet]

The statement of the first covenant

Deuteronomy 4

5 See, I have taught you decrees and laws as the Lord my God commanded me, so that you may follow them in the land you are entering to take possession of it. 6 Observe them carefully, for this will show your wisdom and understanding to the nations, who will hear about all these decrees and say, “Surely this great nation is a wise and understanding people.” 7 What other nation is so great as to have their gods near them the way the Lord our God is near us whenever we pray to him? 8 And what other nation is so great as to have such righteous decrees and laws as this body of laws I am setting before you today?

Transition....Jeremiah 31

31 “The days are coming,” declares the Lord,
“when I will make a new covenant
with the people of Israel
and with the people of Judah.
32 It will not be like the covenant
I made with their ancestors
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt,
because they broke my covenant,
though I was a husband to[d] them,[e]”
declares the Lord.
33 “This is the covenant I will make with the people of Israel
after that time,” declares the Lord.
“I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
34 No longer will they teach their neighbor,
or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest,”
declares the Lord.
“For I will forgive their wickedness
and will remember their sins no more.”

the new covenant....Luke 22....

20 In the same way, after the supper he took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you.

[kudzu]

gosh, you're stupid........

The second law was written AFTER the Babylonian exile and presented at the Temple.

Deuteronomy is from the Second Temple period.

[PostmodernProphet]

The second law was written AFTER the Babylonian exile and presented at the Temple.

Deuteronomy is from the Second Temple period.

atheist disbelief is not a substitute for history.....

[kudzu]

Cyrus is a king mentioned more than 30 times in the Bible and is identified as Cyrus the Great (also Cyrus II or Cyrus the Elder) who reigned over Persia between 539—530 BC.

This pagan king is important in Jewish history because it was under his rule that Jews were first allowed to return to Israel after 70 years of captivity.

In one of the most amazing prophecies of the Bible, Isaiah predicts Cyrus’ decree to free the Jews.

One hundred fifty years before Cyrus lived, the prophet calls him by name and gives details of Cyrus’ benevolence to the Jews: “This is what the Lord says to his anointed, to Cyrus, whose right hand I take hold of to subdue nations before him . . . ‘I summon you by name and bestow on you a title of honor, though you do not acknowledge me’” (Isaiah 45:1, 4; see also 41:2-25; 42:6). Evincing His sovereignty over all nations, God says of Cyrus, “He is my shepherd and will accomplish all that I please” (Isaiah 44:28).

Cyrus’s decree releasing the Jewish people, in fulfillment of prophecy, is recorded in 2 Chronicles 36:22–23: “Now in the first year of Cyrus king of Persia, that the word of the LORD by the mouth of Jeremiah might be fulfilled, the LORD stirred up the spirit of Cyrus king of Persia, so that he made a proclamation throughout all his kingdom and also put it in writing: ‘Thus says Cyrus king of Persia, “The LORD, the God of heaven, has given me all the kingdoms of the earth, and he has charged me to build him a house at Jerusalem, which is in Judah. Whoever is among you of all his people, may the LORD his God be with him. Let him go up.”’” Other Old Testament books that mention Cyrus include Ezra and Daniel.

[PostmodernProphet]

Cyrus is a king mentioned more than 30 times in the Bible and is identified as Cyrus the Great (also Cyrus II or Cyrus the Elder) who reigned over Persia between 539—530 BC.

This pagan king is important in Jewish history because it was under his rule that Jews were first allowed to return to Israel after 70 years of captivity.

In one of the most amazing prophecies of the Bible, Isaiah predicts Cyrus’ decree to free the Jews.

One hundred fifty years before Cyrus lived, the prophet calls him by name and gives details of Cyrus’ benevolence to the Jews: “This is what the Lord says to his anointed, to Cyrus, whose right hand I take hold of to subdue nations before him . . . ‘I summon you by name and bestow on you a title of honor, though you do not acknowledge me’” (Isaiah 45:1, 4; see also 41:2-25; 42:6). Evincing His sovereignty over all nations, God says of Cyrus, “He is my shepherd and will accomplish all that I please” (Isaiah 44:28).

Cyrus’s decree releasing the Jewish people, in fulfillment of prophecy, is recorded in 2 Chronicles 36:22–23: “Now in the first year of Cyrus king of Persia, that the word of the LORD by the mouth of Jeremiah might be fulfilled, the LORD stirred up the spirit of Cyrus king of Persia, so that he made a proclamation throughout all his kingdom and also put it in writing: ‘Thus says Cyrus king of Persia, “The LORD, the God of heaven, has given me all the kingdoms of the earth, and he has charged me to build him a house at Jerusalem, which is in Judah. Whoever is among you of all his people, may the LORD his God be with him. Let him go up.”’” Other Old Testament books that mention Cyrus include Ezra and Daniel.

Daniel was written ABOUT the captivity of Israel and Ezra about Israel's post captivity era........it is true that Isaiah specifically prophesied about Cyrus, but he is not described as the Messiah........God refers to him as one from the north that God stirred up.......Isaiah 41:25......

[Wolverine]

Leviticus was written during and after the Babylonian exile to keep the Jews separate from others. The laws and rituals are exclusive to them and gives them their identity.

And Paul speaks of Homosexuality in the new Testament!

[Wolverine]

Yeah, I can read. I've read the Bible.

Can you read?

You are making stuff up out of nothing.

Jesus clearly is quoted as saying:

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the law and the prophets. I have come, not abolish them, but to fulfill them. Of this much I assure you: UNTIL HEAVEN AND EARTH PASS AWAY, NOT THE SMALLEST LETTER OF THE LAW, NOT THE SMALLEST PART OF A LETTER, SHALL BE DONE AWAY WITH UNTIL IT ALL COME TRUE."

Matthew 5: 17ff

Are you saying that the Earth has passed away????

Jesus H. Christ, Wolverine...it is there in black and white. I've even enlarged it for you.

If the Earth has not passed away...JESUS assures everyone that "...NOT THE SMALLEST LETTER OF THE LAW, NOT THE SMALLEST PART OF A LETTER" shall be done away with.

So...the law that men who engage in homosexual conduct are to be put to death...ACCORDING TO JESUS.

Don't quote me Paul...and suggest that Paul's word is more important than Jesus'...and suggest you are speaking for CHRISTIANITY in that.

Paul's word is inspired by God, Jesus is God.

Killing homosexuals was no longer necessary as they will be judged when they die, having either accepted or not accepted Christs payment for sins. Jesus fulfilled the law, making it only possible through him to get into heaven.

[kudzu]

Paul's word is inspired by God, Jesus is God.

Killing homosexuals was no longer necessary as they will be judged when they die, having either accepted or not accepted Christs payment for sins. Jesus fulfilled the law, making it only possible through him to get into heaven.

There were a hundred sins in the OT that were punishable by death including sassing your parents or mixing fabrics on the same garment.. Can you quote any scripture where homosexuals were put to death?

[Frank Apisa]

And Paul speaks of Homosexuality in the new Testament!

Paul and John.

Ask a "Christian" what Jesus said...and they will almost always quote Paul or John.

Lemme tell you what Jesus CLEARLY said about homosexuality:




Okay?

[kudzu]

Here's a list of Messianic claimants... just old ones NOT modern claimants.

Claimants
Judas, son of Hezekiah (4 BCE)
Simon of Peraea (4 BCE)
Athronges, the shepherd (4 BCE)
Judas, the Galilean (6 CE)
John the Baptist (c.28 CE)
Jesus of Nazareth (c.30 CE)
The Samaritan prophet (36 CE)
King Herod Agrippa (44 CE)
Theudas (45 CE)
The Egyptian prophet (52-58 CE)
An anonymous prophet (59 CE)
Menahem, the son of Judas the Galilean (66 CE)
John of Gischala (67-70 CE)
Vespasian (67 CE)
Simon bar Giora (69-70 CE)
Jonathan, the weaver (73 CE)
Lukuas (115 CE)
Simon ben Kosiba (132-135)
Moses of Crete (448)
Muhammad (570-c.632)
Abu Isa' al-Isfahani (c.700)

http://www.livius.org/articles/religion/messiah/messianic-claimant-6-jesus-of-nazareth/

[Frank Apisa]

Paul's word is inspired by God, Jesus is God.

Yeah...that is the bullshit you Christians use when you realize that you cannot find Jesus mentioning something that bothered Paul.




Killing homosexuals was no longer necessary as they will be judged when they die, having either accepted or not accepted Christs payment for sins. Jesus fulfilled the law, making it only possible through him to get into heaven.

BUT THAT IS NOT WHAT THE GOD OF THE BIBLE SAYS!

The god of the Bible says they should die right now. They have forfeited their lives.

Read the goddam thing...and stop trying to pretend something else is there in order to satisfy YOUR prejudices.

[Ralph]

Am I bound by the old Testament to kill homosexuals or are we in a period of grace.

The major difference? The "Old Testament"....i.e., the LAW (of Moses) was directed only at one peoples on earth, the Hebrews (Biblical Israel). The scope and authority of THE LAW covered only ISRAEL, "The Lord our God made a covenant with us in Horeb. The Lord did not make this covenant with our fathers (ancestors), but with us, who are here today, all of us who are alive." -- Deuteronomy 5:2-3.


All of the eternally righteous commandments that are unique and pertain to all men who would worship and serve the one true God of Creation are carried forth into the New Testament Law of Grace (9 of the 10 commandments can be directly referenced to the New Testament Law......only one of the 10 commandments was vacated in order to allow Gentiles fellowship within the terms of the New Law.....Sabbath Worship),


"Let no one judge you in food or drink, or regarding a festival or new moon or SABBATHS, which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance of Christ...." -- Col. 2:16-17.



Many of the laws contained in the Old Law such as the commandments, the righteous laws that should pertain to every man on earth that wants to live a full and righteous life are the same as those in the New Testament Covenant....but the laws are not the same. If they were a mirror image....there could be no NEW LAW OF GRACE. The prophets of old forecast a new covenant that would be different from the Law of Moses (Jer.31:31-32).


Thus, the Old Law was nailed to the cross of the Christ. Speaking to the gentiles Paul had this revelation from the Spirit of God to reveal.....


"....And you (the gentiles) being dead in your trespasses (of the Old Law) and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He (the Christ) has made you alive together with Him, having forgave you all trespasses and the uncircumcision of the flesh (gentile circumcision is of the heart, in a spiritual manner), HAVING WIPED OUT THE HANDWRITING OF THE REQUIREMENTS THAT WAS AGAINST US (the Law). HE HAS TAKEN IT OUT OF THE WAY HAVING NAILED IT TO HIS CROSS." -- Col. 2:11-14.


All the righteous commandments have been carried forth, only those pertaining directly to the Nation of Biblical Israel.....or those that were contrary to the Gentiles ….were nailed to the cross of the Christ.


What then does the Christ (in the new testament of Grace) have to say about homosexuality? He declares the righteousness of marriage as it was from the beginning, "Have you not read He who created from the beginning made them male and female and said, FOR THIS REASON A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER AND BE JOINED TO A WIFE AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH...." -- Matthew 19:4-6

CONCLUSION? Of course no one living under the terms of the New Testament Covenant of Grace has the right or the authority to take the law into his own hands and murder anyone because of their sexual deviancy.....all Christians are commanded to allow the authorities to control the masses (Romans 12:17-21, Romans 13:1-4)

We are no longer living by the Letter of the Law but by the Spirit...……… Whose soul is actually condemned when they take the law into their own hands and murder someone who is in sin.....forever making it impossible for that soul to repent and find salvation?

[Fentoine Lum]

Am I bound by the old Testament to kill homosexuals or are we in a period of grace.

Doesn't really matter, you can proclaim anything, there's no requirement to act accordingly at all. Just keep repeating your "values" like an ad campaign.

[kudzu]

Yeah...that is the bullshit you Christians use when you realize that you cannot find Jesus mentioning something that bothered Paul.



BUT THAT IS NOT WHAT THE GOD OF THE BIBLE SAYS!

The god of the Bible says they should die right now. They have forfeited their lives.

Read the goddam thing...and stop trying to pretend something else is there in order to satisfy YOUR prejudices.


Paul had some sort of an affliction..

[Frank Apisa]

The major difference? The "Old Testament"....i.e., the LAW (of Moses) was directed only at one peoples on earth, the Hebrews (Biblical Israel). The scope and authority of THE LAW covered only ISRAEL, "The Lord our God made a covenant with us in Horeb. The Lord did not make this covenant with our fathers (ancestors), but with us, who are here today, all of us who are alive." -- Deuteronomy 5:2-3.


All of the eternally righteous commandments that are unique and pertain to all men who would worship and serve the one true God of Creation are carried forth into the New Testament Law of Grace (9 of the 10 commandments can be directly referenced to the New Testament Law......only one of the 10 commandments was vacated in order to allow Gentiles fellowship within the terms of the New Law.....Sabbath Worship),


"Let no one judge you in food or drink, or regarding a festival or new moon or SABBATHS, which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance of Christ...." -- Col. 2:16-17.



Many of the laws contained in the Old Law such as the commandments, the righteous laws that should pertain to every man on earth that wants to live a full and righteous life are the same as those in the New Testament Covenant....but the laws are not the same. If they were a mirror image....there could be no NEW LAW OF GRACE. The prophets of old forecast a new covenant that would be different from the Law of Moses (Jer.31:31-32).


Thus, the Old Law was nailed to the cross of the Christ. Speaking to the gentiles Paul had this revelation from the Spirit of God to reveal.....


"....And you (the gentiles) being dead in your trespasses (of the Old Law) and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He (the Christ) has made you alive together with Him, having forgave you all trespasses and the uncircumcision of the flesh (gentile circumcision is of the heart, in a spiritual manner), HAVING WIPED OUT THE HANDWRITING OF THE REQUIREMENTS THAT WAS AGAINST US (the Law). HE HAS TAKEN IT OUT OF THE WAY HAVING NAILED IT TO HIS CROSS." -- Col. 2:11-14.


All the righteous commandments have been carried forth, only those pertaining directly to the Nation of Biblical Israel.....or those that were contrary to the Gentiles ….were nailed to the cross of the Christ.


What then does the Christ (in the new testament of Grace) have to say about homosexuality? He declares the righteousness of marriage as it was from the beginning, "Have you not read He who created from the beginning made them male and female and said, FOR THIS REASON A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER AND BE JOINED TO A WIFE AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH...." -- Matthew 19:4-6

CONCLUSION? Of course no one living under the terms of the New Testament Covenant of Grace has the right or the authority to take the law into his own hands and murder anyone because of their sexual deviancy.....all Christians are commanded to allow the authorities to control the masses (Romans 12:17-21, Romans 13:1-4)

We are no longer living by the Letter of the Law but by the Spirit...……… Whose soul is actually condemned when they take the law into their own hands and murder someone who is in sin.....forever making it impossible for that soul to repent and find salvation?

I'll ask you a version of the question I asked Wolverine, Ralph:

Is everything you just said a bunch of bullshit...

...or was Jesus a liar?

Jesus was very specific. Not a word, not a letter of a word, not a piece of a letter of a word of the law will change...UNTIL THE EARTH PASSES AWAY.

So either Jesus was lying...or what you asserted in your post makes no sense.

Which do you suppose it is?

[Frank Apisa]

Paul had some sort of an affliction..

Sounds like it.

I've warmed to him a good deal over the years. I originally considered him to be a clown. But he had his heart in the right place...and I think he was battling demons that required him to be especially hard on "sin of the flesh"...especially if it was the flesh of one man for another man.

We still see lots of that.

Many of the most ardent anti-homosexual fighters...have personal battles with homosexual desires.

I give him a pass on that.

[kudzu]

Sounds like it.

I've warmed to him a good deal over the years. I originally considered him to be a clown. But he had his heart in the right place...and I think he was battling demons that required him to be especially hard on "sin of the flesh"...especially if it was the flesh of one man for another man.

We still see lots of that.

Many of the most ardent anti-homosexual fighters...have personal battles with homosexual desires.

I give him a pass on that.

I have wondered if Paul's affliction was latent homosexuality..

[Wolverine]

Paul and John.

Ask a "Christian" what Jesus said...and they will almost always quote Paul or John.

Lemme tell you what Jesus CLEARLY said about homosexuality:




Okay?

If you do not believe that the writing of the Bible was inspired by God, and written by men sure you can make that argument. God said it in the old testament, and Jesus is God. Then in the new testament, it is confirmed as sinful in more than one place, you left out the first chapter of Romans, and without repentance would prevent you from entering heaven.

[Wolverine]

Yeah...that is the bullshit you Christians use when you realize that you cannot find Jesus mentioning something that bothered Paul.



BUT THAT IS NOT WHAT THE GOD OF THE BIBLE SAYS!

The god of the Bible says they should die right now. They have forfeited their lives.

Read the goddam thing...and stop trying to pretend something else is there in order to satisfy YOUR prejudices.

So wait, even Catholics believe Jesus is God, where do you get your rantings, I mean it's clear in the bible. You just have a really limited understanding of what you have read evidently. The Bible is clear about homosexuality, period, you may not like that, but don't pretend it isn't there.

[Fentoine Lum]

If you do not believe that the writing of the Bible was inspired by God, and written by men sure you can make that argument. God said it in the old testament, and Jesus is God. Then in the new testament, it is confirmed as sinful in more than one place, you left out the first chapter of Romans, and without repentance would prevent you from entering heaven.

The entire thing is bullshit requiring the suspension of critical thought which conjures up a real question; who benefits from vast swaths of the population believing in things sans evidence, requiring the purposeful suspension of critical thought? Perhaps that is why the Inquisition was called for; to alter the perceptual reality of the tribes of Europe.

[Fentoine Lum]

So wait, even Catholics believe Jesus is God, where do you get your rantings, I mean it's clear in the bible. You just have a really limited understanding of what you have read evidently. The Bible is clear about homosexuality, period, you may not like that, but don't pretend it isn't there.

No, Jeebus is NOT god dumbass.

[Wolverine]

I'll ask you a version of the question I asked Wolverine, Ralph:

Is everything you just said a bunch of bullshit...

...or was Jesus a liar?

Jesus was very specific. Not a word, not a letter of a word, not a piece of a letter of a word of the law will change...UNTIL THE EARTH PASSES AWAY.

So either Jesus was lying...or what you asserted in your post makes no sense.

Which do you suppose it is?

It's been covered JESUS FULFILLED THE LAW

[kudzu]

So wait, even Catholics believe Jesus is God, where do you get your rantings, I mean it's clear in the bible. You just have a really limited understanding of what you have read evidently. The Bible is clear about homosexuality, period, you may not like that, but don't pretend it isn't there.

There are 100 OT sins that get the death penalty.. WHO was put to death for homosexuality?

[kudzu]

It's been covered JESUS FULFILLED THE LAW

Jesus was an observant Jew.. He didn't change the law.

[Wolverine]

The entire thing is bullshit requiring the suspension of critical thought which conjures up a real question; who benefits from vast swaths of the population believing in things sans evidence, requiring the purposeful suspension of critical thought? Perhaps that is why the Inquisition was called for; to alter the perceptual reality of the tribes of Europe.

God knew that the supposed elitist thinkers would have a problem with the Bibles wisdom, and suppose their own wisdom above that of God!

1 Corinthians 3:19-20 New King James Version (NKJV)

19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, “He catches the wise in their own craftiness”; 20 and again, “The Lord knows the thoughts of the wise, that they are futile.”

[Wolverine]

Jesus was an observant Jew.. He didn't change the law.

I said He FULFILLED THE LAW, when asked


Luke 13:10-17 New Living Translation (NLT)
Jesus Heals on the Sabbath

10 One Sabbath day as Jesus was teaching in a synagogue, 11 he saw a woman who had been crippled by an evil spirit. She had been bent double for eighteen years and was unable to stand up straight. 12 When Jesus saw her, he called her over and said, “Dear woman, you are healed of your sickness!” 13 Then he touched her, and instantly she could stand straight. How she praised God!

14 But the leader in charge of the synagogue was indignant that Jesus had healed her on the Sabbath day. “There are six days of the week for working,” he said to the crowd. “Come on those days to be healed, not on the Sabbath.”

15 But the Lord replied, “You hypocrites! Each of you works on the Sabbath day! Don’t you untie your ox or your donkey from its stall on the Sabbath and lead it out for water? 16 This dear woman, a daughter of Abraham, has been held in bondage by Satan for eighteen years. Isn’t it right that she be released, even on the Sabbath?”

17 This shamed his enemies, but all the people rejoiced at the wonderful things he did.

[kudzu]

I said He FULFILLED THE LAW, when asked


Luke 13:10-17 New Living Translation (NLT)
Jesus Heals on the Sabbath

10 One Sabbath day as Jesus was teaching in a synagogue, 11 he saw a woman who had been crippled by an evil spirit. She had been bent double for eighteen years and was unable to stand up straight. 12 When Jesus saw her, he called her over and said, “Dear woman, you are healed of your sickness!” 13 Then he touched her, and instantly she could stand straight. How she praised God!

14 But the leader in charge of the synagogue was indignant that Jesus had healed her on the Sabbath day. “There are six days of the week for working,” he said to the crowd. “Come on those days to be healed, not on the Sabbath.”

15 But the Lord replied, “You hypocrites! Each of you works on the Sabbath day! Don’t you untie your ox or your donkey from its stall on the Sabbath and lead it out for water? 16 This dear woman, a daughter of Abraham, has been held in bondage by Satan for eighteen years. Isn’t it right that she be released, even on the Sabbath?”

17 This shamed his enemies, but all the people rejoiced at the wonderful things he did.


Luke never knew Jesus nor overheard any of Jesus' conversations.

What do you know about the people of Corinth?

[kudzu]

God knew that the supposed elitist thinkers would have a problem with the Bibles wisdom, and suppose their own wisdom above that of God!

1 Corinthians 3:19-20 New King James Version (NKJV)

19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, “He catches the wise in their own craftiness”; 20 and again, “The Lord knows the thoughts of the wise, that they are futile.”


The Jews of Corinth rejected Paul's message.

[Bobb]

Am I bound by the old Testament to kill homosexuals or are we in a period of grace.

The government has an obligation to execute people for homosexual acts. The New Testament (Romans 1) reiterates that those guilty of homosexual acts should be executed. Nothing Jesus taught contradicts this.

[Frank Apisa]

If you do not believe that the writing of the Bible was inspired by God, and written by men sure you can make that argument. God said it in the old testament, and Jesus is God. Then in the new testament, it is confirmed as sinful in more than one place, you left out the first chapter of Romans, and without repentance would prevent you from entering heaven.

Allow me to repeat every word Jesus ever said about homosexuality:







There.

How can you argue with it?

And while I am at it...let me mention EVERY WORD Jesus ever said about abortion:






So.

With that in mind...back to the regularly scheduled programs.

[Frank Apisa]

So wait, even Catholics believe Jesus is God, where do you get your rantings, I mean it's clear in the bible. You just have a really limited understanding of what you have read evidently. The Bible is clear about homosexuality, period, you may not like that, but don't pretend it isn't there.

Let's consider, if you will...what JESUS said about homosexuality:
















So.

Where were we?

[Frank Apisa]

It's been covered JESUS FULFILLED THE LAW

Are you saying that the EARTH has passed away???

Are you saying that the EARTH has passed away???????


ARE YOU SAYING THE EARTH HAS PASSED AWAY???????????


Or are you saying that Jesus was bullshitting us about that?

[Frank Apisa]

God knew that the supposed elitist thinkers would have a problem with the Bibles wisdom, and suppose their own wisdom above that of God!

1 Corinthians 3:19-20 New King James Version (NKJV)

19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, “He catches the wise in their own craftiness”; 20 and again, “The Lord knows the thoughts of the wise, that they are futile.”

There it is again!

Paul!

That is all you guys have.

Paul and John.

[kudzu]

The government has an obligation to execute people for homosexual acts. The New Testament (Romans 1) reiterates that those guilty of homosexual acts should be executed. Nothing Jesus taught contradicts this.

Paul may have been a latent homosexual.. He had some "affliction" and also had issues with women. Jesus didn't write Romans.. Paul or Timothy probably did.

[Bobb]

Let's consider, if you will...what JESUS said about homosexuality:


Hey shitlicker, Jesus said, God "created them from the beginning made them male and female. Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh." According to Jesus, marriage is male and female becoming one flesh, not two fags.

Hey shitlicker, Jesus doesn't stand alone, but upon all scripture, which tells us God hates people who commit homosexual acts. Jesus hates you, libby. Try to enjoy your miserable life now, before you're thrown into Hell.

[kudzu]

Hey shitlicker, Jesus said, God "created them from the beginning made them male and female. Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh." According to Jesus, marriage is male and female becoming one flesh, not two fags.

Hey shitlicker, Jesus doesn't stand alone, but upon all scripture, which tells us God hates people who commit homosexual acts. Jesus hates you, libby. Try to enjoy your miserable life now, before you're thrown into Hell.

Tertius probably wrote Romans..


"I Tertius, who write the epistle, salute you in the Lord" (Romans 16:22).

[Frank Apisa]

Hey shitlicker, Jesus said, God "created them from the beginning made them male and female. Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh." According to Jesus, marriage is male and female becoming one flesh, not two fags.

Hey shitlicker, Jesus doesn't stand alone, but upon all scripture, which tells us God hates people who commit homosexual acts. Jesus hates you, libby. Try to enjoy your miserable life now, before you're thrown into Hell.

Fuck you and fuck any god that wants to punish me for all of eternity because it is a shitsticker.

As for what Jesus said about homosexuality...

...he said:



















...and that is all he said.

You gotta deal with that.

Or not.

Did I remember to say, "Fuck you" to you?

[Wolverine]

Fuck you and fuck any god that wants to punish me for all of eternity because it is a shitsticker.

As for what Jesus said about homosexuality...

...he said:



















...and that is all he said.

You gotta deal with that.

Or not.

Did I remember to say, "Fuck you" to you?

Last time, what is in the Bible is inspired by God, so if Jesus said it that is God.

John 14:9 New King James Version (NKJV)

9 Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?

Your foul language doesn't change the fact that you are WRONG

[PostmodernProphet]

Are you saying that the Earth has passed away????

Jesus H. Christ, Wolverine...it is there in black and white. I've even enlarged it for you.

If the Earth has not passed away...JESUS assures everyone that "...NOT THE SMALLEST LETTER OF THE LAW, NOT THE SMALLEST PART OF A LETTER" shall be done away with.

So...the law that men who engage in homosexual conduct are to be put to death...ACCORDING TO JESUS.

Frank, you are quoting what Jesus said about the Ten Commandments (the Mosaic Law) and trying to apply it to the Levitical cleanliness codes........you're changing way more than a small letter.........

[PostmodernProphet]

Tertius probably wrote Romans..

.

you're probably wrong about 98% of the things you write about the Bible, since your only sources of theological knowledge are atheist hate sites.......

[PostmodernProphet]

"I Tertius, who write the epistle, salute you in the Lord" (Romans 16:22).


22 I, Tertius, who wrote down this letter, greet you in the Lord.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans+16&version=NIV
Tertius was a scribe......

[kudzu]

you're probably wrong about 98% of the things you write about the Bible, since your only sources of theological knowledge are atheist hate sites.......

Actually I NEVER use hate sites.. Don't you know the difference?

I have a question for you.. What do you think of the wording "lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil"? Do you think that is correct?

[kudzu]

you're probably wrong about 98% of the things you write about the Bible, since your only sources of theological knowledge are atheist hate sites.......

Actually I NEVER use hate sites.. Don't you know the difference?

I have a question for you.. What do you think of the wording "lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil"? Do you think that is correct?

[Frank Apisa]

Last time, what is in the Bible is inspired by God, so if Jesus said it that is God.

John 14:9 New King James Version (NKJV)

9 Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?

Your foul language doesn't change the fact that you are WRONG

I am not wrong...and you do not have the ethical spine to acknowledge that I am not.

Here is what Jesus said about homosexuality:














I DEFY you to add one more word attributed to Jesus about homosexuality to that list.

I DEFY YOU!

(Cue the quotes from Paul and John, because there are none coming from Jesus!)

[PostmodernProphet]

Actually I NEVER use hate sites.. Don't you know the difference?

I have a question for you.. What do you think of the wording "lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil"? Do you think that is correct?

I think that we have learned a great deal about interpreting the ancient languages over the years......

I see no significant theological difference between ....


13 And lead us not into temptation,[a]
but deliver us from the evil one.[b]’\

footnotes in NIV
Matthew 6:13 The Greek for temptation can also mean testing.
Matthew 6:13 Or from evil; some late manuscripts one, / for yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever. Amen.

and "abandon us not into temptation."....

not being Catholic I doubt I will change just because a pope prefers it......

by the way, there is no atheist theological site which ISN'T a hate site......its why they exist......

[Ralph]

I'll ask you a version of the question I asked Wolverine, Ralph:

Is everything you just said a bunch of bullshit...

...or was Jesus a liar?

Jesus was very specific. Not a word, not a letter of a word, not a piece of a letter of a word of the law will change...UNTIL THE EARTH PASSES AWAY.

So either Jesus was lying...or what you asserted in your post makes no sense.

Which do you suppose it is?

Your query depends upon your position. Do you assume the Holy Scriptures to be BS? The question was addressed via presenting the Book, Chapter and Verse of the actual content and context of the Holly Scriptures...not opinion.

As far as the word changing in revelation of script. Nothing has changed. If you wish to live by the letter of the OLD LAW (where you are required to live by the letter of the law in order to find righteous salvation in the eyes of the old covenant....GO FOR IT. Live your entire life void of having sinned once under the terms of the LAW....just as the ultimate sacrificial lamb of God did (Jesus the Christ). If you cannot, carry your sins forward year to year until the Real Christ comes to earth incarnate. Make your annual sacrifices (kill a lamb or two) have all you children as well as yourself physically circumcised, avoid eating certain meats. LIVE BY THE ENTIRE LAW or take bits and pieces of it out of context and go to hell because of spiritual adultery. ITS YOUR SOUL, NOT MINE. I shall continue to rightly divide the word of truth. :bigthink: Not depending upon the traditions of men, but the actual revelations of scripture that reads the same for everyone. ;)

Just as Paul pointed out, you are considered a spiritual adulterer if you attempt to live by BOTH LAWS. You cannot have 2 wives no more than you can live under two different covenants. Question? Why do you not present the book, chapter and verse where anyone observed the Sabbath before the command was delivered to Moses on Mt. Sani? Just one verse where anyone under the covenant of Abraham was required to observe Sabbath worship. Come back when you find the scripture.


One warning from Paul as far as attempting to live by the letter of the Old Law and the New Covenant. "You have been severed from the Christ, you who are attempting to be justified by THE LAW: YOU HAVE FALLEN FROM GRACE." -- Gal. 5:4


Jesus did not change one word in the LAW nor one word of revelation from the Holy Spirit of God......Jesus simply "FULLFILLED" the requirements of the OLD LAW (living a sinless life from birth to death)…He then was offered up as the ultimate sacrificial lamb in order to cover the sins of the world for anyone who would but accept such GRACE via living under the terms and conditions sit forth in His last will and TESTAMENT....the New Testament of Grace. -- Matthew 5:17-18.


…..until all is finished? What do you assume the Christ meant when He declared with His last breath of humanity, "It is finished?" Literally He ushered out the Old Law and ushered in the NEW LAW....a spiritual law.

[Wolverine]

I am not wrong...and you do not have the ethical spine to acknowledge that I am not.

Here is what Jesus said about homosexuality:














I DEFY you to add one more word attributed to Jesus about homosexuality to that list.

I DEFY YOU!

(Cue the quotes from Paul and John, because there are none coming from Jesus!)

So you are admitting to having your arse handed to you, as the Bible clearly states that if you have seen Jesus you have seen God, that is Jesus talking not Paul that is in red letters. Therefore Jesus is God, and the Bible is inspired by God written by men. You are so far behind you think you are in first place.

[Frank Apisa]

Your query depends upon your position. Do you assume the Holy Scriptures to be BS? The question was addressed via presenting the Book, Chapter and Verse of the actual content and context of the Holly Scriptures...not opinion.

As far as the word changing in revelation of script. Nothing has changed. If you wish to live by the letter of the OLD LAW (where you are required to live by the letter of the law in order to find righteous salvation in the eyes of the old covenant....GO FOR IT. Live your entire life void of having sinned once under the terms of the LAW....just as the ultimate sacrificial lamb of God did (Jesus the Christ). If you cannot, carry your sins forward year to year until the Real Christ comes to earth incarnate. Make your annual sacrifices (kill a lamb or two) have all you children as well as yourself physically circumcised, avoid eating certain meats. LIVE BY THE ENTIRE LAW or take bits and pieces of it out of context and go to hell because of spiritual adultery. ITS YOUR SOUL, NOT MINE. I shall continue to rightly divide the word of truth. :bigthink: Not depending upon the traditions of men, but the actual revelations of scripture that reads the same for everyone. ;)

Just as Paul pointed out, you are considered a spiritual adulterer if you attempt to live by BOTH LAWS. You cannot have 2 wives no more than you can live under two different covenants. Question? Why do you not present the book, chapter and verse where anyone observed the Sabbath before the command was delivered to Moses on Mt. Sani? Just one verse where anyone under the covenant of Abraham was required to observe Sabbath worship. Come back when you find the scripture.

Nice evasion.

Either what you said in your earlier post is just a bunch of bullshit...

...OR JESUS LIED when he said he was not here to change any of the law until the Earth passes away.

Don't evade.

Which is it.

Do you think JESUS lied when he said what he said?

If you do not...

...acknowledge that all that bullshit was just bullshit.

[Frank Apisa]

So you are admitting to having your arse handed to you...

If you see this as me having my ass handed to me...you are nuts.

I am showing you CLEARLY the inconsistencies in your thinking.

All you are doing it to state your blind guess that the Bible reveals truths that I am supposed to accept because you say I have to accept them.

What the Bible does say is that JESUS says he was not here to change any of the law...NOT ONE WORD...NOT ONE LETTER OF ONE WORD...NOT ONE STOKE OF ONE LETTER OF ONE WORD.

So get off your bullshit...and acknowledge that.

If Jesus was not lying...then every word of the law still applies.

But then again...you've got Paul and John to fall back on.

They contradict Jesus (essentially calling him a liar)...but you go with them...rather than with the person YOU claim is GOD.

Try to catch up...then attempt that debate rhetoric about being so far behind.

[Wolverine]

Actually I NEVER use hate sites.. Don't you know the difference?

I have a question for you.. What do you think of the wording "lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil"? Do you think that is correct?

Jesus did not ask us to pray that God would not tempt us but rather that He would not lead us into temptation. Thus, the implication is not that God Himself might tempt us, but rather that He is the one guiding our lives and that we desire Him to lead us away from evil influences that might tempt us to sin. Indeed, the request to not lead us into temptation is followed by the phrase "but deliver us from evil."

[Frank Apisa]

Go, Kudzu.

Apparently Wolverine does not see the illogicality of what he just wrote.

Oh, my...these people actually have to entreat their god not to lead them into temptation.

[kudzu]

Your query depends upon your position. Do you assume the Holy Scriptures to be BS? The question was addressed via presenting the Book, Chapter and Verse of the actual content and context of the Holly Scriptures...not opinion.

As far as the word changing in revelation of script. Nothing has changed. If you wish to live by the letter of the OLD LAW (where you are required to live by the letter of the law in order to find righteous salvation in the eyes of the old covenant....GO FOR IT. Live your entire life void of having sinned once under the terms of the LAW....just as the ultimate sacrificial lamb of God did (Jesus the Christ). If you cannot, carry your sins forward year to year until the Real Christ comes to earth incarnate. Make your annual sacrifices (kill a lamb or two) have all you children as well as yourself physically circumcised, avoid eating certain meats. LIVE BY THE ENTIRE LAW or take bits and pieces of it out of context and go to hell because of spiritual adultery. ITS YOUR SOUL, NOT MINE. I shall continue to rightly divide the word of truth. :bigthink: Not depending upon the traditions of men, but the actual revelations of scripture that reads the same for everyone. ;)

Just as Paul pointed out, you are considered a spiritual adulterer if you attempt to live by BOTH LAWS. You cannot have 2 wives no more than you can live under two different covenants. Question? Why do you not present the book, chapter and verse where anyone observed the Sabbath before the command was delivered to Moses on Mt. Sani? Just one verse where anyone under the covenant of Abraham was required to observe Sabbath worship. Come back when you find the scripture.


One warning from Paul as far as attempting to live by the letter of the Old Law and the New Covenant. "You have been severed from the Christ, you who are attempting to be justified by THE LAW: YOU HAVE FALLEN FROM GRACE." -- Gal. 5:4

The Sabbath was created at the very beginning of human history.

In Genesis 2:1-3 we read that God blessed and sanctified the seventh day:

"Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made."

The Hebrew word translated "sanctified" in Genesis 2:3 and "hallowed" in Exodus 20:11 is qadash, a word meaning "to hallow, to pronounce holy, to consecrate, to set apart for holy use."

[kudzu]

Go, Kudzu.

Apparently Wolverine does not see the illogicality of what he just wrote.

Oh, my...these people actually have to entreat their god not to lead them into temptation.


The proposed NEW language for the prayer is "Do NOT ABANDON US to temptation"..

The argument being God never temped anyone to do evil.. Even when Jesus was tempted in the wilderness .. that was Satan, not God.

[kudzu]

Jesus did not ask us to pray that God would not tempt us but rather that He would not lead us into temptation. Thus, the implication is not that God Himself might tempt us, but rather that He is the one guiding our lives and that we desire Him to lead us away from evil influences that might tempt us to sin. Indeed, the request to not lead us into temptation is followed by the phrase "but deliver us from evil."


God doesn't LEAD anyone into sin or evil.. Bad theology and probably bad translation.

[Frank Apisa]

The proposed NEW language for the prayer is "Do NOT ABANDON US to temptation"..

The argument being God never temped anyone to do evil.. Even when Jesus was tempted in the wilderness .. that was Satan, not God.

But they now are suggesting that they must entreat their god NOT TO LEAD them in that direction. And even if the new language is used...they will be praying that their god NOT ABANDON THEM to go in that direction.

Some god!

[Frank Apisa]

God doesn't LEAD anyone into sin or evil.. Bad theology and probably bad translation.

Kudzu...there may be NO GODS to lead or abandon anyone to do anything.

That is something that must always be considered.

[Ralph]

Nice evasion.

Either what you said in your earlier post is just a bunch of bullshit...

...OR JESUS LIED when he said he was not here to change any of the law until the Earth passes away.

Don't evade.

Which is it.

Do you think JESUS lied when he said what he said?

If you do not...

...acknowledge that all that bullshit was just bullshit.

Jesus didnot declare......that the Law would not be fulfilled until the earth passes away. Jesus said, the earth would pass away before He failed to complete His mission on earth. "DO NOT THINK THAT I CAME TO DESTORY THE LAW OR THE PROPHETS. I DID NOT COME TO DESTROY (make the earth pass away) BUT TO FULFILL. FOR ASSUEDLY, I SAY TO YOU, TILL HEAVEN AND EARTH PASS AWAY, ONE JOT OR ONE TITTLE WILL BY NO MEANS PASS FROM THE LAW UNTIL ALL IS FULFILLED." -- Matt. 5:17-18.

Just a little comprehension 101 would go a long way. Jesus said He came to fulfill the law not destroy it. He then declared He had fulfilled that mission, He fulfilled the requirements of the Old Law, "These are the things that I said to you (His Apostles) while I was still with you (living, before His sacrifice on the cross), ALL THINGS MUST BE FULFILLED WHICH WERE WRITTEN IN THE LAW OF MOSES AND THE PROPHETS AND THE PSLAMS CONCERNING...."ME". -- ACTS 1:3-8


The Law and Prophets (the old law) was to be taught until John (the Baptist)…….Since that time the Kingdom of God (the church that Christ established) has been preached, with everyone pressed into it." -- Luke 16:16

[Frank Apisa]

Jesus didnot declare......that the Law would not be fulfilled until the earth passes away. Jesus said, the earth would pass away before He failed to complete His mission on earth. "DO NOT THINK THAT I CAME TO DESTORY THE LAW OR THE PROPHETS. I DID NOT COME TO DESTROY (make the earth pass away) BUT TO FULFILL. FOR ASSUEDLY, I SAY TO YOU, TILL HEAVEN AND EARTH PASS AWAY, ONE JOT OR ONE TITTLE WILL BY NO MEANS PASS FROM THE LAW UNTIL ALL IS FULFILLED." -- Matt. 5:17-18.

READ THAT AGAIN!

That shows JESUS saying that NOT ONE WORD OF THE LAW WILL CHANGE UNTIL THE EARTH PASSES AWAY.

Jesus H. Christ...if you have to lie in order to defend what is said in the Bible...where the hell are you?

[Ralph]

READ THAT AGAIN!

That shows JESUS saying that NOT ONE WORD OF THE LAW WILL CHANGE UNTIL THE EARTH PASSES AWAY.

Jesus H. Christ...if you have to lie in order to defend what is said in the Bible...where the hell are you?

Not one word did pass away......until Jesus the Christ declared, "IT IS FINISHED." -- John 19:30. Since that time we are no longer bound by the Laws of Moses. In reality not one Gentile was ever bound to the Laws of Moses as the Old Law was specific to the nation of Biblical Israel only. The Sabbath was a unique covenant between Israel and God the Father, not to any other nation on earth -- Ez. 20:5, 10-12.

[Frank Apisa]

Not one word did pass away......until Jesus the Christ declared, "IT IS FINISHED." -- John 19:30. Since that time we are no longer bound by the Laws of Moses. In reality no one Gentile was ever bound by the Law of Moses as that law was specific to Biblical Israel, not the world.

Get off it, Ralph. If you have to lie to defend what the Bible says...you have lost.

You wrote:

"DO NOT THINK THAT I CAME TO DESTORY THE LAW OR THE PROPHETS. I DID NOT COME TO DESTROY (make the earth pass away) BUT TO FULFILL. FOR ASSUEDLY, I SAY TO YOU, TILL HEAVEN AND EARTH PASS AWAY, ONE JOT OR ONE TITTLE WILL BY NO MEANS PASS FROM THE LAW UNTIL ALL IS FULFILLED." -- Matt. 5:17-18.

Only a moron or a liar would pretend that the "destroy" in that passage refers to making the Earth pass away...rather than what it obviously refers to, namely to destroy any part of the law.

You are an embarrassment to Christianity with that nonsense.

I am an agnostic...and I can do a better and more ethical defense.

[Ralph]

Get off it, Ralph. If you have to lie to defend what the Bible says...you have lost.

You wrote:

"DO NOT THINK THAT I CAME TO DESTORY THE LAW OR THE PROPHETS. I DID NOT COME TO DESTROY (make the earth pass away) BUT TO FULFILL. FOR ASSUEDLY, I SAY TO YOU, TILL HEAVEN AND EARTH PASS AWAY, ONE JOT OR ONE TITTLE WILL BY NO MEANS PASS FROM THE LAW UNTIL ALL IS FULFILLED." -- Matt. 5:17-18.

Only a moron or a liar would pretend that the "destroy" in that passage refers to making the Earth pass away...rather than what it obviously refers to, namely to destroy any part of the law.

You are an embarrassment to Christianity with that nonsense.

I am an agnostic...and I can do a better and more ethical defense.

Either you read the scriptures, (all of them) as truth.....or you allow the traditions of men to make them contradict one another, making lies out of truth. Its not rocket science. Just read the scriptures in context and do not attempt to mold them into your own truth in order to suit your CULT. ;) When Jesus said it is finished (he fulfilled the law) Paul said the Law was nailed to His cross.....I believe the Holy Spirit of God that revealed these truths.

[Frank Apisa]

Either you read the scriptures, (all of them) as truth.....or you allow the traditions of men to make them contradict one another, making lies out of truth. Its not rocket science. Just read the scriptures in context and do not attempt to mold them into your own truth in order to suit your CULT. ;) When Jesus said it is finished (he fulfilled the law) Paul said the Law was nailed to His cross.....I believe the Holy Spirit of God that revealed these truths.

I am reading them as written. You are attempting to distort them because you cannot logically defend your position here.

The quote from JESUS is:

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the law and the prophets. I have come, not to abolish them, but to fulfill them. Of this much I assure you; UNTIL HEAVEN AND EARTH PASS AWAY, not the smallest letter of the law, not the smallest part of a letter shall be done away with until it all comes true."

Matthew 5:17ff

JESUS is saying that NO PART of the law...NOT ONE WORD, NOT ONE LETTER, NOT ONE PART OF A LETTER...shall be done away with until the Earth passes away.

Now you are bringing in John to contradict Jesus.

Get off it.

If you cannot contribute reasonably to the Christian defense, at least have the decency to abandon what you are doing, because all that does is to make the Christian position worse!

[kudzu]

I am reading them as written. You are attempting to distort them because you cannot logically defend your position here.

The quote from JESUS is:

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the law and the prophets. I have come, not to abolish them, but to fulfill them. Of this much I assure you; UNTIL HEAVEN AND EARTH PASS AWAY, not the smallest letter of the law, not the smallest part of a letter shall be done away with until it all comes true."

Matthew 5:17ff

JESUS is saying that NO PART of the law...NOT ONE WORD, NOT ONE LETTER, NOT ONE PART OF A LETTER...shall be done away with until the Earth passes away.

Now you are bringing in John to contradict Jesus.

Get off it.

If you cannot contribute reasonably to the Christian defense, at least have the decency to abandon what you are doing, because all that does is to make the Christian position worse!


That is what Jesus said although there were no tape recordings at the time... and by all accounts Jesus was an observant Jew.

[Frank Apisa]

That is what Jesus said although there were no tape recordings at the time... and by all accounts Jesus was an observant Jew.

Yup.

Not sure what Ralph is trying to do with his argument...but it seems to be failing big time.

[kudzu]

Yup.

Not sure what Ralph is trying to do with his argument...but it seems to be failing big time.

I have often wondered who was writing down all those private conversations Jesus had.

[Wolverine]

If you see this as me having my ass handed to me...you are nuts.

I am showing you CLEARLY the inconsistencies in your thinking.

All you are doing it to state your blind guess that the Bible reveals truths that I am supposed to accept because you say I have to accept them.

What the Bible does say is that JESUS says he was not here to change any of the law...NOT ONE WORD...NOT ONE LETTER OF ONE WORD...NOT ONE STOKE OF ONE LETTER OF ONE WORD.

So get off your bullshit...and acknowledge that.

If Jesus was not lying...then every word of the law still applies.

But then again...you've got Paul and John to fall back on.

They contradict Jesus (essentially calling him a liar)...but you go with them...rather than with the person YOU claim is GOD.

Try to catch up...then attempt that debate rhetoric about being so far behind.

No you are trying to show yourself as being right, when you are obviously not. The only blind person here is you

[Frank Apisa]

I have often wondered who was writing down all those private conversations Jesus had.

Yeah...especially since the chroniclers seem to be late-comers to the scene.

But...no matter, because some of the wisdom attributed to Jesus is excellent. His thoughts of loving one another is not original...but there is a beauty and utility to it.

Whoever wrote the material in Matthew 5:17 forward...screwed up a bit.

JESUS specifically says he is not here to change any of the law in any way...and essentially, that in no way should anyone consider it changed.

BUT HE DID...on several occasions, make significant adjustments himself.

I said this earlier:

My personal opinion is that the best guess that can be made about the Bible is that it is a self-serving history of the early Hebrew people interspersed with a fanciful religious mythology. My opinion is that the best guess that can be made about the religious aspects of the Bible is that the people writing the material—the people inventing the god—put their prejudices into the mouth of the god they invented.

[Wolverine]

I am reading them as written. You are attempting to distort them because you cannot logically defend your position here.

The quote from JESUS is:

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the law and the prophets. I have come, not to abolish them, but to fulfill them. Of this much I assure you; UNTIL HEAVEN AND EARTH PASS AWAY, not the smallest letter of the law, not the smallest part of a letter shall be done away with until it all comes true."

Matthew 5:17ff

JESUS is saying that NO PART of the law...NOT ONE WORD, NOT ONE LETTER, NOT ONE PART OF A LETTER...shall be done away with until the Earth passes away.

Now you are bringing in John to contradict Jesus.

Get off it.

If you cannot contribute reasonably to the Christian defense, at least have the decency to abandon what you are doing, because all that does is to make the Christian position worse!

Since Christ has fulfilled the law, we know that “Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth” (Romans 10:4). The law was our enemy since we could not keep it in our own strength. However, we see what Christ did it for us in Colossians 2:14. “Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to His cross.” All praise to the Lord Jesus Christ for fulfilling the law so that it could be taken away. As we read in Romans 6:14, “For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.” We have been set free to serve the Lord in a way that surpasses the law. For example, instead of merely not stealing, we can give to those in need. As we read in Ephesians 4:28, “Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labor, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth.” May we experience the liberty of not being under the law but through the power of the Holy Spirit exceed the demands of the law as we joyfully serve our Savior King, the Lord Jesus Christ. (260.6) (DJ)

[Wolverine]

The proposed NEW language for the prayer is "Do NOT ABANDON US to temptation"..

The argument being God never temped anyone to do evil.. Even when Jesus was tempted in the wilderness .. that was Satan, not God.

Did you even read 71 I guess not! Since God does not tempt, I am guessing the scripture means what it says in 71

[Frank Apisa]

Since Christ has fulfilled the law, we know that “Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth” (Romans 10:4). The law was our enemy since we could not keep it in our own strength. However, we see what Christ did it for us in Colossians 2:14. “Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to His cross.” All praise to the Lord Jesus Christ for fulfilling the law so that it could be taken away. As we read in Romans 6:14, “For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.” We have been set free to serve the Lord in a way that surpasses the law. For example, instead of merely not stealing, we can give to those in need. As we read in Ephesians 4:28, “Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labor, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth.” May we experience the liberty of not being under the law but through the power of the Holy Spirit exceed the demands of the law as we joyfully serve our Savior King, the Lord Jesus Christ. (260.6) (DJ)

What the fuck do you mean by "Christ has fulfilled the law?"

And save all that "praise the lord" bullshit for the unwashed. Okay?

JESUS said he was not here to change the law!

You are saying that Jesus was lying...that he was in fact here to do just that.

If you cannot see the inconsistency...you are being willfully blind.

[Wolverine]

What the fuck do you mean by "Christ has fulfilled the law?"

And save all that "praise the lord" bullshit for the unwashed. Okay?

JESUS said he was not here to change the law!

You are saying that Jesus was lying...that he was in fact here to do just that.

If you cannot see the inconsistency...you are being willfully blind.

Since Christ has fulfilled the law, we know that “Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth” (Romans 10:4). The law was our enemy since we could not keep it in our own strength. However, we see what Christ did it for us in Colossians 2:14. “Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to His cross.” All praise to the Lord Jesus Christ for fulfilling the law so that it could be taken away. As we read in Romans 6:14, “For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.” We have been set free to serve the Lord in a way that surpasses the law. For example, instead of merely not stealing, we can give to those in need. As we read in Ephesians 4:28, “Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labor, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth.” May we experience the liberty of not being under the law but through the power of the Holy Spirit exceed the demands of the law as we joyfully serve our Savior King, the Lord Jesus Christ. (260.6) (DJ)

My Gosh you can't read or comprehend!

[Frank Apisa]

Since Christ has fulfilled the law, we know that “Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth” (Romans 10:4). The law was our enemy since we could not keep it in our own strength. However, we see what Christ did it for us in Colossians 2:14. “Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to His cross.” All praise to the Lord Jesus Christ for fulfilling the law so that it could be taken away. As we read in Romans 6:14, “For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.” We have been set free to serve the Lord in a way that surpasses the law. For example, instead of merely not stealing, we can give to those in need. As we read in Ephesians 4:28, “Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labor, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth.” May we experience the liberty of not being under the law but through the power of the Holy Spirit exceed the demands of the law as we joyfully serve our Savior King, the Lord Jesus Christ. (260.6) (DJ)

My Gosh you can't read or comprehend!

WHAT THE FUCK DO YOU MEAN BY CHRIST HAS FULFILLED THE LAW?

One of the laws is: Thou shalt not murder.

How did Christ fulfill that law?

Another is: Thou shalt not eat "unclean" foods.

How did Christ fulfill that law?

[kudzu]

Did you even read 71 I guess not! Since God does not tempt, I am guessing the scripture means what it says in 71

Yes I read it.. but God does NOT lead us into temptation.. Its poor theology.

You must be a literalist.

[kudzu]

It should be clear how the God who in the “Our Father” leads into temptation is the same God who has Jesus say: “My God, my God, why have you abandoned me?” (Mk 15:34).

[Wolverine]

WHAT THE FUCK DO YOU MEAN BY CHRIST HAS FULFILLED THE LAW?

One of the laws is: Thou shalt not murder.

How did Christ fulfill that law?

Another is: Thou shalt not eat "unclean" foods.

How did Christ fulfill that law?

Why can't you just admit defeat
As we read in Romans 6:14, “For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

Murder is now a capital offense, we are subject to the authorities that God allow to be over us.
also
At about the same time God gave Peter a vision of animals that the Jews regarded as unclean because of the ceremonial law of the Old Testament. The voice from heaven said, "Rise and eat." But Peter protested that they were unclean. And the voice came back with these decisive words in verse 15: "What God has cleansed you must not call common!"

[Wolverine]

Yes I read it.. but God does NOT lead us into temptation.. Its poor theology.

You must be a literalist.

What do you not understand! Yes the Bible is the literal word of God

the implication is not that God Himself might tempt us, but rather that He is the one guiding our lives and that we desire Him to lead us away from evil influences that might tempt us to sin. Indeed, the request to not lead us into temptation is followed by the phrase "but deliver us from evil."

[Frank Apisa]

Why can't you just admit defeat
As we read in Romans 6:14, “For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

Murder is now a capital offense, we are subject to the authorities that God allow to be over us.
also
At about the same time God gave Peter a vision of animals that the Jews regarded as unclean because of the ceremonial law of the Old Testament. The voice from heaven said, "Rise and eat." But Peter protested that they were unclean. And the voice came back with these decisive words in verse 15: "What God has cleansed you must not call common!"

Are you actually saying that secular law is more important to you than what your god instructs you?

But if secular law demand that you serve all customers...your god's instructions take precedence?

And you dare ask ME to "just admit defeat?"

You are being slaughtered here...because you are defending what cannot be defended. It is, as you say, a "faith" thing...simply saying a thing is so and sticking to it with stone-headed tenacity.

You still are not even trying to answer the question: What does "Jesus fulfilled the law" mean?

Or the question, "How did Jesus fulfill any of the laws I mentioned?"

Your "faith" (meaning your stone-headedness about your blind guesses)...are fine. You are entitled to them. But if you are going to come into a forum designed for political discussions...you had better be prepared to do a hell of a lot better job of defending your bullshit, because people here are not going to buy that crap.

Now...go in peace...but above all else...GO. Or STFU about your god.

[kudzu]

What do you not understand! Yes the Bible is the literal word of God

the implication is not that God Himself might tempt us, but rather that He is the one guiding our lives and that we desire Him to lead us away from evil influences that might tempt us to sin. Indeed, the request to not lead us into temptation is followed by the phrase "but deliver us from evil."

If it were the literal word of God, it wouldn't have so many contradictions and anachronisms and errors of geography. It was written for Bronze age people... and underwent a combining of the different stories of Israel and Judah in the 5th century BC.

[Bobb]

Why can't you just admit defeat
As we read in Romans 6:14, “For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

Murder is now a capital offense, we are subject to the authorities that God allow to be over us.
also
At about the same time God gave Peter a vision of animals that the Jews regarded as unclean because of the ceremonial law of the Old Testament. The voice from heaven said, "Rise and eat." But Peter protested that they were unclean. And the voice came back with these decisive words in verse 15: "What God has cleansed you must not call common!"

"For ye are not under the law, but under grace" should not be read that there is no law, for only the wicked are lawless. But, you should read it as because of grace, we are not under the penalty of the law. Jesus did not do away with the law. And, Christians do not deliberately break the law, i.e. sin.

It was never against the law, never a sin, to be ritually "unclean." And, ritual sacrifice made the the ritually unclean ritually clean clean. Jesus's sacrifice makes everything that was unclean ritually clean, and therefor a Christian can't be unclean, even when eating "unclean" meat.

[PostmodernProphet]

I have often wondered who was writing down all those private conversations Jesus had.

yeah......that sounds like something you would sit around wondering........sad, isn't it........

[PostmodernProphet]

Yes I read it.. but God does NOT lead us into temptation.. Its poor theology.

You must be a literalist.

I think its pretty clear that God permits us to be tempted and tested.......the book of Job clearly teaches us that lesson.......whether you argue that God is leading or merely permitting is a game of semantics that you and the pope seem to be playing........personally I find it boring..........

[PostmodernProphet]

It should be clear how the God who in the “Our Father” leads into temptation is the same God who has Jesus say: “My God, my God, why have you abandoned me?” (Mk 15:34).

it communicates to us the humanity of the incarnate God.....separated even from his divine rights by our sins that he assumed.......

[PostmodernProphet]

If it were the literal word of God, it wouldn't have so many contradictions and anachronisms and errors of geography.

that's not a problem of God's literal communication.......its a problem of your illiterate translation.........


It was written for Bronze age people..

and yet what it says is actually easy for anyone with an open mind to understand........

[Minister of Truth]

So wait, even Catholics believe Jesus is God, where do you get your rantings, I mean it's clear in the bible. You just have a really limited understanding of what you have read evidently. The Bible is clear about homosexuality, period, you may not like that, but don't pretend it isn't there.

It would be weird if we didn't, otherwise the belief would only be 500 years old.

[Wolverine]

Are you actually saying that secular law is more important to you than what your god instructs you?

But if secular law demand that you serve all customers...your god's instructions take precedence?

And you dare ask ME to "just admit defeat?"

You are being slaughtered here...because you are defending what cannot be defended. It is, as you say, a "faith" thing...simply saying a thing is so and sticking to it with stone-headed tenacity.

You still are not even trying to answer the question: What does "Jesus fulfilled the law" mean?

Or the question, "How did Jesus fulfill any of the laws I mentioned?"

Your "faith" (meaning your stone-headedness about your blind guesses)...are fine. You are entitled to them. But if you are going to come into a forum designed for political discussions...you had better be prepared to do a hell of a lot better job of defending your bullshit, because people here are not going to buy that crap.

Now...go in peace...but above all else...GO. Or STFU about your god.

No law says I must abandon my faith

I am saying God instructs us to be

Submit to Government

13 Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God. 2 Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will [a]bring judgment on themselves.

[Wolverine]

If it were the literal word of God, it wouldn't have so many contradictions and anachronisms and errors of geography. It was written for Bronze age people... and underwent a combining of the different stories of Israel and Judah in the 5th century BC.

No contradictions

[Frank Apisa]

No law says I must abandon my faith

I am saying God instructs us to be

Submit to Government

13 Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God. 2 Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will [a]bring judgment on themselves.

Well then if secular law says a public business must accommodate all customers...why are you supportive of someone opposed to baking of a fucking cake on religious grounds?

[Frank Apisa]

No contradictions

There are contradictions all over the place in the Bible.

Lots of them.

[kudzu]

No contradictions

Lots of contradictions.

Further, Israel and Judah had different creation stories that were cobbled together about the 5th century BC during the reign of king Omri.

[Irish Exit]

Am I bound by the old Testament to kill homosexuals or are we in a period of grace.

Ask Bill Clinton. He is the one who declared a New Covenant in his inaugural address.

[Wolverine]

There are contradictions all over the place in the Bible.

Lots of them.

Non

[Frank Apisa]

Non

Only to those who close their minds...are there none.

Live with that in peace. Go...and kowtow to your god however you will in private.

Or stick around and do your thing in public...and deal with the fact that not everyone will put up with your bullshit.

I'd suggest the former.

Almost any priest, minister, rabbi, or imam would suggest the same.

[Wolverine]

Only to those who close their minds...are there none.

Live with that in peace. Go...and kowtow to your god however you will in private.

Or stick around and do your thing in public...and deal with the fact that not everyone will put up with your bullshit.

I'd suggest the former.

Almost any priest, minister, rabbi, or imam would suggest the same.

Actually if they did suggest that, they would be ignoring Jesus!
Matthew 28:19 New King James Version (NKJV)

19 Go [a]therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

[Frank Apisa]

Actually if they did suggest that, they would be ignoring Jesus!
Matthew 28:19 New King James Version (NKJV)

19 Go [a]therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

C'mon.

You are actually saying you are one of Jesus' disciples doing what Jesus said back then???

[Bobb]

Well then if secular law says a public business must accommodate all customers...why are you supportive of someone opposed to baking of a fucking cake on religious grounds?


Why are fags such fascist pigs, demanding some guy bake them a fucking cake when they can easily find a dozen other places to get a cake from?

[Frank Apisa]

Why are fags such fascist pigs, demanding some guy bake them a fucking cake when they can easily find a dozen other places to get a cake from?

Has anyone ever called you a jerk-off, Bobb.

I mean...during the last 15 seconds or so.

[Wolverine]

C'mon.

You are actually saying you are one of Jesus' disciples doing what Jesus said back then???

I am a disciple of Christ, are you saying I am not?

[Frank Apisa]

I am a disciple of Christ, are you saying I am not?

He was talking to his disciples back then.

Get off your bullshit.

[Wolverine]

Why are fags such fascist pigs, demanding some guy bake them a fucking cake when they can easily find a dozen other places to get a cake from?

You must conform!

[Wolverine]

He was talking to his disciples back then.

Get off your bullshit.

Hmm, If he told them to go make disciples, what would that make the people who receive the good news and follow Jesus, "DISCIPLES" do keep up!

[Frank Apisa]

Hmm, If he told them to go make disciples, what would that make the people who receive the good news and follow Jesus, "DISCIPLES"

Assholes?

[Flash]

Am I bound by the old Testament to kill homosexuals or are we in a period of grace.

I think you are also bound to kill children who misbehave.

[Wolverine]

Assholes?

This isn't an argument about what you think of believers, it is an indictment of your supposed superior knowledge on old and new testament, which is squat. I have countered everyone of your little nonsensical posts with scripture, only to have you claim victory, you are very funny if nothing else. what did god do to make you so mad at him?

[Wolverine]

I think you are also bound to kill children who misbehave.

Old Covenant, can you cite scripture, and verse, in the bible where that ever happened? Also I am now bound by the laws of the Authorities placed over me which is also biblical.

[Frank Apisa]

This isn't an argument about what you think of believers, it is an indictment of your supposed superior knowledge on old and new testament, which is squat. I have countered everyone of your little nonsensical posts with scripture, only to have you claim victory, you are very funny if nothing else. what did god do to make you so mad at him?

Do you honestly think you have done that???

You have got to be kidding.

Everything Jesus said indicates that the law of the Old Testament applies right on until the Earth passes.

And you quote Paul and John to call Jesus a liar...and then claim victory/

Go back to my #21.

That is the entire story of the supposed difference between the old and new covenants, Wolverine.

The rest is all bullshit...made up because you guys are at least smart enough to see the god of the Bible as the monster it is...and you want to pretend that you are not worshiping THAT god...

...BUT THAT GOD IS THE GOD JESUS WORSHIPED.

You are the funny one here, W.

I am no more "mad" at your god than I am at Santa Claus.

[Frank Apisa]

Old Covenant, can you cite scripture, and verse, in the bible where that ever happened? Also I am now bound by the laws of the Authorities placed over me which is also biblical.

What difference is it if it never happened?

It IS what your god ordered!

Now...if people decided not to follow the dictates of that god because they are sane...what difference would it make?

[Wolverine]

Do you honestly think you have done that???

You have got to be kidding.

Everything Jesus said indicates that the law of the Old Testament applies right on until the Earth passes.

And you quote Paul and John to call Jesus a liar...and then claim victory/

Go back to my #21.

That is the entire story of the supposed difference between the old and new covenants, Wolverine.

The rest is all bullshit...made up because you guys are at least smart enough to see the god of the Bible as the monster it is...and you want to pretend that you are not worshiping THAT god...

...BUT THAT GOD IS THE GOD JESUS WORSHIPED.

You are the funny one here, W.

I am no more "mad" at your god than I am at Santa Claus.

Everything you posted has between myself, and Bobb, been refuted. Now maybe in a forum full of teenagers you can get away with this, not here, I understand that Christ came as a living sacrifice for sin we are now in the age of grace. I am aware that he settled our debt once and for all. We are still to live by the word but we are under grace. You go worship the world, as for me and my house we will worship the Lord.

[Wolverine]

What difference is it if it never happened?

It IS what your god ordered!

Now...if people decided not to follow the dictates of that god because they are sane...what difference would it make?

Didn't say it didn't happen which means it was effective evidently, now if I am subject to the authorities over me I would be committing murder.

[Frank Apisa]

Didn't say it didn't happen which means it was effective evidently, now if I am subject to the authorities over me I would be committing murder.

But...but...but...

...your god ordered you to do it.

Are you saying you would not give up your life for what your god requires of you?

Your defense could be..."my god told me to do it."

And you could claim that not allowing you to do it...would be violating your religious "beliefs."

[Ralph]

Old Covenant, can you cite scripture, and verse, in the bible where that ever happened? Also I am now bound by the laws of the Authorities placed over me which is also biblical.

Indeed, you are bound by the laws of the land....to the point they become unrighteous in a personal manner. Example: Laws in a republic such as the US are representative of the moral traits of this society. Not all laws reflect Biblical Morality but they are the laws of the land. Such an immoral law would be that of ABORTION ON DEMAND.....its the law based upon a personal decision not a government mandate. You have the liberty to personally exercise that supposed immoral right.....OR NOT if you are a devoted follower of the teachings contained in the Holy Scriptures. Immoral societies make immoral laws, moral societies make moral laws. As long as there is a free will choice only those who freely choose to be immoral are at risk of falling from grace.


Who is to revenge all those innocent children offered as a sacrifice to human secularism? God.....not the Christian, "Vengeance is Mine.....I will repay, says the Lord." -- Romans 12:19

What do the scriptures declare about following the laws of the land? A Christian is to serve God and His righteous laws first and foremost, these laws exceed the immoral laws of man that are contrary to the laws of God. If for instance the government decides to place a limit upon the number of children that you might freely decide to have....then that law becomes personal and there is no sin in following the laws of God over the laws of man.


There is scripture for such a position. "But Peter and the other apostles answered and said: "We ought to obey GOD rather than man". -- Acts 5:29. In context there is no contradiction between the revelations found in the Book of Romans. We as Christians should obey the laws of the land.....to the point those laws place ones soul into danger. In other words....each of us is commanded to make many free will decisions in relation to what is moral and what is immoral....personally. "So then each of us shall give an accounting of himself to God." -- Romans 14:12

[Wolverine]

But...but...but...

...your god ordered you to do it.

Are you saying you would not give up your life for what your god requires of you?

Your defense could be..."my god told me to do it."

And you could claim that not allowing you to do it...would be violating your religious "beliefs."

Old Covenant, keep up!

[Frank Apisa]

Old Covenant, keep up!

Jesus told you that you are still obligated to the old covenant.

Yeah, I know...Paul says Jesus is full of shit.

But you shouldn't pay that much attention to Paul.

John...now, John...that is a bunch of shit!

[Wolverine]

Indeed, you are bound by the laws of the land....to the point they become unrighteous in a personal manner. Example: Laws in a republic such as the US are representative of the moral traits of this society. Not all laws reflect Biblical Morality but they are the laws of the land. Such an immoral law would be that of ABORTION ON DEMAND.....its the law based upon a personal decision not a government mandate. You have the liberty to personally exercise that supposed immoral right.....OR NOT if you are a devoted follower of the teachings contained in the Holy Scriptures. Immoral societies make immoral laws, moral societies make moral laws. As long as there is a free will choice only those who freely choose to be immoral are at risk of falling from grace.


Who is to revenge all those innocent children offered as a sacrifice to human secularism? God.....not the Christian, "Vengeance is Mine.....I will repay, says the Lord." -- Romans 12:19

What do the scriptures declare about following the laws of the land? A Christian is to serve God and His righteous laws first and foremost, these laws exceed the immoral laws of man that are contrary to the laws of God. If for instance the government decides to place a limit upon the number of children that you might freely decide to have....then that law becomes personal and there is no sin in following the laws of God over the laws of man.


There is scripture for such a position. "But Peter and the other apostles answered and said: "We ought to obey GOD rather than man". -- Acts 5:29. In context there is no contradiction between the revelations found in the Book of Romans. We as Christians should obey the laws of the land.....to the point those laws place ones soul into danger. In other words....each of us is commanded to make many free will decisions in relation to what is moral and what is immoral....personally. "So then each of us shall give an accounting of himself to God." -- Romans 14:12

Obey Those in Authority

13 All of you must obey those who rule over you. There are no authorities except the ones God has chosen. Those who now rule have been chosen by God. 2 So whoever opposes the authorities opposes leaders whom God has appointed. Those who do that will be judged.

What then do we do with this?

[Wolverine]

Jesus told you that you are still obligated to the old covenant.

Yeah, I know...Paul says Jesus is full of shit.

But you shouldn't pay that much attention to Paul.

John...now, John...that is a bunch of shit!

Obey Those in Authority

13 All of you must obey those who rule over you. There are no authorities except the ones God has chosen. Those who now rule have been chosen by God. 2 So whoever opposes the authorities opposes leaders whom God has appointed. Those who do that will be judged.

What then do we do with this?

[Frank Apisa]

Obey Those in Authority

13 All of you must obey those who rule over you. There are no authorities except the ones God has chosen. Those who now rule have been chosen by God. 2 So whoever opposes the authorities opposes leaders whom God has appointed. Those who do that will be judged.

What then do we do with this?

Juezzzusss H. Keerist, Wolverine...are you telling us that your god is responsible for that bag of garbage now sitting in the Oval Office.

Have you no respect for your god at all?

[Bobb]

Jesus told you that you are still obligated to the old covenant.

All God's people do.

[Frank Apisa]

All God's people do.

Apparently not Wolverine.

[Old Trapper]

There is no "new" testament

The Formation and Creation of the Bible's New Testament


http://www.humanreligions.info/creation_of_the_new_testament.html


And the goyim's understanding of the Hebrew Tanakh is laughable at best

The Tanakh has nothing to do with the goyim

At first I was somewhat amused at your use of the term goyim, and then TaNaK, however, you are now becoming an irritant with your childish outlook on a subject you obviously know little of.

[Old Trapper]

Juezzzusss H. Keerist, Wolverine...are you telling us that your god is responsible for that bag of garbage now sitting in the Oval Office.

Have you no respect for your god at all?

Why do you wish to cherry pick the scripture in order to suit your own belief system?

Scripture says "There is no God". Do you believe that also?

You see, you want to believe that the Law still exists as if Christ did not fulfill the law with His sacrifice so that we are no longer under the burden of the law. Do you wish to make Christs sacrifice of no effect?

And if God had not wanted Trump in office to perform whatever God has planned, who are you to say He could not have stopped him from being elected?

[Bobb]

Not one word did pass away......until Jesus the Christ declared, "IT IS FINISHED." -- John 19:30. Since that time we are no longer bound by the Laws of Moses. In reality not one Gentile was ever bound to the Laws of Moses as the Old Law was specific to the nation of Biblical Israel only. The Sabbath was a unique covenant between Israel and God the Father, not to any other nation on earth -- Ez. 20:5, 10-12.

Israel and the church are one and the same, God's holy nation.

[Bobb]

You see, you want to believe that the Law still exists as if Christ did not fulfill the law with His sacrifice so that we are no longer under the burden of the law. Do you wish to make Christs sacrifice of no effect?


"Fulfilling" the law is not doing away with the law. Just the opposite, Jesus can't fulfill a law that has been eliminated.

[kudzu]

Israel and the church are one and the same, God's holy nation.

No.. Modern day Israel is NOT the church.

[Frank Apisa]

Why do you wish to cherry pick the scripture in order to suit your own belief system?

I do not do "believing."

I make guesses...and call them guesses; or suppositions and call them suppositions; I have opinions and call them opinions.


Scripture says "There is no God". Do you believe that also?

I do not do "believing"...and I do not care what "scripture" says. "Scripture" is what ancient, superstitious, relatively ignorant people blindly guessed about the REALITY of existence. It is my opinion that anyone still using those blind guesses as a basis for their blind guesses...is an asshole.


You see, you want to believe that the Law still exists as if Christ did not fulfill the law with His sacrifice so that we are no longer under the burden of the law. Do you wish to make Christs sacrifice of no effect?

We are having a discussion in an Internet forum.

If you think I must conform to your blind guesses about the REALITY of existence...I am going to tell you to go fuck yourself.

I will ask you what I asked the other guy: What the hell does "Christ fulfilled the law" fucking mean?


And if God had not wanted Trump in office to perform whatever God has planned, who are you to say He could not have stopped him from being elected?

I am NOT saying that...so stop pretending that I did.

I asked a question.

Read the goddam question...and answer it if you want.

[PostmodernProphet]

Lots of contradictions.


only atheists waste their time creating claims of contradictions out of human errors in translation.......to what purpose?......

[Bobb]

No.. Modern day Israel is NOT the church.

Of course not. The Church is the Israel of God, not a state of Jesus-haters.

[kudzu]

only atheists waste their time creating claims of contradictions out of human errors in translation.......to what purpose?......

Then how could it be inerrant?

Do you believe that the patriarchs lived hundreds of years or do you look at their counting system?

[PostmodernProphet]

Quote Originally Posted by Frank Apisa View Post
Jesus told you that you are still obligated to the old covenant.

that is the exact opposite of the truth.......I've already given you the verse in which he created the new covenant......

[kudzu]

Of course not. The Church is the Israel of God, not a state of Jesus-haters.


How exactly is that relevant? The destruction of the Temple changed Judaism .. It was the end of blood sacrifice.. it was then end of Jewish dominion and the beginning of Rabbinic Judaism.

[PostmodernProphet]

Then how could it be inerrant?

Do you believe that the patriarchs lived hundreds of years or do you look at their counting system?

First, the Bible is infallible, not inerrant.....
Second, the errors occur in human translation, not in the word of God.....
Third, yes......I believe the patriarchs lived hundreds of years due to the direct actions of God.......

[Wolverine]

Juezzzusss H. Keerist, Wolverine...are you telling us that your god is responsible for that bag of garbage now sitting in the Oval Office.

Have you no respect for your god at all?

Yes he allowed the President who is currently trying to save our nation from the Socialist / globalists. He is not perfect but much less evil then whom he was running against.

[Frank Apisa]

Yes he allowed the President who is currently trying to save our nation from the Socialist / globalists. He is not perfect but much less evil then whom he was running against.

Horse shit.

If your god is the reason that abomination is in office...you should be pissing on it rather than kneeling before it.

Donald Trump is the worst president we've ever had...and I suspect Hillary Clinton could have been one of the best.

Fuck you...your idiotic conservatism...and your god.

[Wolverine]

Horse shit.

If your god is the reason that abomination is in office...you should be pissing on it rather than kneeling before it.

Donald Trump is the worst president we've ever had...and I suspect Hillary Clinton could have been one of the best.

Fuck you...your idiotic conservatism...and your god.

What you suspect proves, exactly who you are, a sore loser hilbot who thinks socialism is good, History has decided different.
You are evil your speech proves it. How much more money do you send the government then what they take, how many illegal immigrants have you taken in to support, how many student loans have you voluntarily agreed to pay off for other peoples kids, how do you even serve your community. I doubt you do even one of those things while asking everyone else to. Now go on a rant, and tell me how virtuous you are so I can laugh at another lie.

[Frank Apisa]

What you suspect proves, exactly who you are, a sore loser hilbot who thinks socialism is good, History has decided different.

Me? A sore loser?

Fuck you, cocksucker.



You are evil your speech proves it.

Me? Evil?

Fuck you, cocksucker.



How much more money do you send the government then what they take, how many illegal immigrants have you taken in to support, how many student loans have you voluntarily agreed to pay off for other peoples kids, how do you even serve your community. I doubt you do even one of those things while asking everyone else to. Now go on a rant, and tell me how virtuous you are so I can laugh at another lie.

Fuck you, cocksucker.


AMERICAN CONSERVATISM:

Without "Christian" assholes like this...the American conservatives could hold a national convention in a local Elks Club.

People like Wolverine are what makes up the core of the Republican Party.

Losers all.

But I am enjoying the entertainment, Wolverine. Thanks for being too stupid to jump out while I am still having fun with you.

[Wolverine]

Me? A sore loser?

Fuck you, cocksucker.




Me? Evil?

Fuck you, cocksucker.



Fuck you, cocksucker.


AMERICAN CONSERVATISM:

Without "Christian" assholes like this...the American conservatives could hold a national convention in a local Elks Club.

People like Wolverine are what makes up the core of the Republican Party.

Losers all.

But I am enjoying the entertainment, Wolverine. Thanks for being too stupid to jump out while I am still having fun with you.

:laugh: didn't answer my questions loser. I spit my coffee out laughing at this one, trying to salvage victory after being scripturaly curb stomped, it's ok your ilk do it all the time boy.

[Frank Apisa]

:laugh: didn't answer my questions loser. I spit my coffee out laughing at this one, trying to salvage victory after being scripturaly curb stomped, it's ok your ilk do it all the time boy.

We are both having a ball then.

Great.

Let's keep at it.

I am laughing my ass off at you...and you are laughing your ass off at me.

Great for the health of us both.

And I can keep at this without tiring! I hope you can also.

This is terrific.

Oh...if you are going to ask a question...YOU REALLY GOTTA USE A QUESTION MARK AS PUNCTUATION.

Do you know what a punctuation mark is?

Look at the end of that last sentence (which was a question)...and the punctuation at the end is a question mark.

See...we can even help each other. I can correct your abysmal grammar and English usage...and you can...uhhhh...well, you can go fuck yourself, cocksucker.

[kudzu]

What you suspect proves, exactly who you are, a sore loser hilbot who thinks socialism is good, History has decided different.
You are evil your speech proves it. How much more money do you send the government then what they take, how many illegal immigrants have you taken in to support, how many student loans have you voluntarily agreed to pay off for other peoples kids, how do you even serve your community. I doubt you do even one of those things while asking everyone else to. Now go on a rant, and tell me how virtuous you are so I can laugh at another lie.

LOLOL.. You INVENT a threat of socialism and then elect Trump? Trump manipulates you with lies and fear.

Are you a grown man?

[Frank Apisa]

LOLOL.. You INVENT a threat of socialism and then elect Trump? Trump manipulates you with lies and fear.

Are you a grown man?

Wolverine claims to be a Christian...and is willing to back Donald Trump.

Insanity!

[Old Trapper]

"Fulfilling" the law is not doing away with the law. Just the opposite, Jesus can't fulfill a law that has been eliminated.


"that we are no longer under the burden of the law" Understand now?

[Old Trapper]

I do not do "believing."

I make guesses...and call them guesses; or suppositions and call them suppositions; I have opinions and call them opinions.



I do not do "believing"...and I do not care what "scripture" says. "Scripture" is what ancient, superstitious, relatively ignorant people blindly guessed about the REALITY of existence. It is my opinion that anyone still using those blind guesses as a basis for their blind guesses...is an asshole.



We are having a discussion in an Internet forum.

If you think I must conform to your blind guesses about the REALITY of existence...I am going to tell you to go fuck yourself.

I will ask you what I asked the other guy: What the hell does "Christ fulfilled the law" fucking mean?



I am NOT saying that...so stop pretending that I did.

I asked a question.

Read the goddam question...and answer it if you want.

If you do not believe then what the fuck are you doing in this discussion with your bull shit? No answer is going to satisfy your hatred for Christ since you "don't do believing".

[Wolverine]

We are both having a ball then.

Great.

Let's keep at it.

I am laughing my ass off at you...and you are laughing your ass off at me.

Great for the health of us both.

And I can keep at this without tiring! I hope you can also.

This is terrific.

Oh...if you are going to ask a question...YOU REALLY GOTTA USE A QUESTION MARK AS PUNCTUATION.

Do you know what a punctuation mark is?

Look at the end of that last sentence (which was a question)...and the punctuation at the end is a question mark.

See...we can even help each other. I can correct your abysmal grammar and English usage...and you can...uhhhh...well, you can go fuck yourself, cocksucker.

I spit my coffee out laughing at this one, trying to salvage victory after being scripturaly curb stomped, it's ok your ilk do it all the time boy.

Does that look like a question to you? It's actually a statement. Now I am laughing even harder. You sure like to use the words cocksucker! Freudian slips i suppose?

[Wolverine]

If you do not believe then what the fuck are you doing in this discussion with your bull shit? No answer is going to satisfy your hatred for Christ since you "don't do believing".

Don't you know how learn ed he is when it comes to the difference between old, and new testament? Ask him, he will tell you, then not prove it. If he didn't use such nasty languange I could actually like him I do not hate all who differ in opinion from mine.

[Frank Apisa]

If you do not believe then what the fuck are you doing in this discussion with your bull shit?

Fuck you.

I do not do "believing." If you are suggesting that because of that I cannot participate in a discussion like this...

...well, fuck you again.


No answer is going to satisfy your hatred for Christ since you "don't do believing".

I do not hate Christ...or anyone else for that mattter.

I think I show more respect for the teachings of Jesus every day...than most of the supposed Christians who post here do.

Fact is, most of the agnostics and atheists I see posting here show more respect for the teachings of Jesus than the supposed Christians do.

And if I forgot to tell you to go fuck yourself...consider yourself told now.

[Frank Apisa]

I spit my coffee out laughing at this one, trying to salvage victory after being scripturaly curb stomped, it's ok your ilk do it all the time boy.

You don't even realize how badly you are doing in this discussion.

Good. It make me laugh even harder.


Does that look like a question to you?

Yeah...your sentence here does look like a question to me. Just like the question I asked earlier...the one to which you probably referred.




It's actually a statement.

Gotta school you again.

Your "it's" has lost meaning. Reference what the fuck you are talking about, child...or continue to use English like a not especially bright grammar school kid.

What is "actually a statement?" (That is a question also. Notice the use of the question mark. By the way...not all question form sentences require one, if that is what you are (unsuccessfully) getting at.



Now I am laughing even harder.

Great! We both are.

This is big time win/win.

Let's keep at it. Try not to slink off just because I am kicking your ass as hard as I am.



You sure like to use the words cocksucker! Freudian slips i suppose?

Oh, I only use it on cocksuckers like you. Well...almost only on cocksuckers like you.

Ball in your court.

Try not to whiff.

[Ralph]

Horse shit.

If your god is the reason that abomination is in office...you should be pissing on it rather than kneeling before it.

Donald Trump is the worst president we've ever had...and I suspect Hillary Clinton could have been one of the best.

Fuck you...your idiotic conservatism...and your god.

Of course......what opinion would anyone expect from the those who call themselves "LEFTISTS"......HUMAN SECULARS......PROGRESSIVE HUMANISTS.....i.e., GODLESS....other than to promote the lie that anyone who supports the Judeo/Christian philosophy is the enemy. Yes, Donald John Trump is the enemy of those who set on the left hand of God awaiting judgment for their immoral acts of deceit.

Regardless of what opinion you or anyone has of the God of Creation.....you are powerless in relation to His everlasting OMNIPRESSENCE and OMNIPOTENT command of all that is reality. God does not change the laws of physical reality in order to prove His power, He manipulates the present to bring about the Actions He forecasts for the future. Not even the God of Creation can control events that have not happened....the Future. There is no such animal as TIME TRAVEL in this plane of reality. The scriptures describe in detail just how He manipulates this reality in order to control the actions of men.


God plans for future events while in the present. "I have declared the former things from the beginning (He planned). They (His plans) went forth from My mouth and I caused them to hear it. Suddenly I did them, and they come to pass." -- Isaiah 48:1


When God makes a plan...…."There is no peace, says the Lord....FOR THE WICKED." -- Isaiah 48:22


Cry, Whine, Grind Teeth, Snarl, Hiss.....spit...curse.....YOU ARE POWERLESS to interrupt the plans of the Al Mighty.

[Old Trapper]

Fuck you.

I do not do "believing." If you are suggesting that because of that I cannot participate in a discussion like this...

...well, fuck you again.



I do not hate Christ...or anyone else for that mattter.

I think I show more respect for the teachings of Jesus every day...than most of the supposed Christians who post here do.

Fact is, most of the agnostics and atheists I see posting here show more respect for the teachings of Jesus than the supposed Christians do.

And if I forgot to tell you to go fuck yourself...consider yourself told now.

Problem is dumb fuck, you interject your crap as if you had some form of knowledge on the subject, and in order to have that knowledge one has to believe. You are free to participate, just don't act as if you have a clue as to what you are talking about.

[Frank Apisa]

Of course......what opinion would anyone expect from the those who call themselves "LEFTISTS"......HUMAN SECULARS......PROGRESSIVE HUMANISTS.....i.e., GODLESS....other than to promote the lie that anyone who supports the Judeo/Christian philosophy is the enemy. Yes, Donald John Trump is the enemy of those who set on the left hand of God awaiting judgment for their immoral acts of deceit.

Regardless of what opinion you or anyone has of the God of Creation.....you are powerless in relation to His everlasting OMNIPRESSENCE and OMNIPOTENT command of all that is reality. God does not change the laws of physical reality in order to prove His power, He manipulates the present to bring about the Actions He forecasts for the future. Not even the God of Creation can control events that have not happened....the Future. There is no such animal as TIME TRAVEL in this plane of reality. The scriptures describe in detail just how He manipulates this reality in order to control the actions of men.


God plans for future events while in the present. "I have declared the former things from the beginning (He planned). They (His plans) went forth from My mouth and I caused them to hear it. Suddenly I did them, and they come to pass." -- Isaiah 48:1


When God makes a plan...…."There is no peace, says the Lord....FOR THE WICKED." -- Isaiah 48:22


Cry, Whine, Grind Teeth, Snarl, Hiss.....spit...curse.....YOU ARE POWERLESS to interrupt the plans of the Al Mighty.

You really do carry blind guessing to an extreme!

[Frank Apisa]

Problem is dumb fuck, you interject your crap as if you had some form of knowledge on the subject, and in order to have that knowledge one has to believe.

I am a student of the Bible...and one does not have to "believe" in order to discuss the subject.

I have lots of knowledge about the subject...a hell of a lot more than some of the people arguing here, including you and Wolverine.




You are free to participate, just don't act as if you have a clue as to what you are talking about.

I do not need your permission to participate.

I am going to participate.

Fuck you.

Take those in whatever order you want.

[Ralph]

You really do carry blind guessing to an extreme!

A "guess" would infer blind faith void of any real information. The Book, Chapter and Verse are provided from the Word of God...thus there is nothing "blind" concerning the TRUTH. Truth is the only element in this reality that has the power to set you FREE. As THE BOOK details....your faith or the lack thereof cannot deter the God of Creation from manipulating His creation. You act as if the created has authority over the power that created you. Any sum can never be greater than the total from which it was substracted. Its common logic and reason. If human secularism is so authoritative....explain and then reproduce LIFE from nothing. Take a dead example of biological life and reanimate it through the scientific method.


"If you abide in My Word, then you are truly disciples of Mine, and you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." -- John 8:31-32


A universal TRUTH: Men are often full of lies; deceit and treachery (Jer. 9:3-9). We as individual peoples have a tendency to follow a lie before we accept the truth....why? Because lies tickle our ears and tell us things we want to hear......not what we need to hear...THE TRUTH. (Thess. 2:9-12).


Science is a creation of man....should we expect it to be filled with universal truths 100% accurate all the time? Explain how the age of the earth continues to change when the scientific method is engaged. When I was a child learning in school....the age of the earth was theorized by science to be 1 billion years old.....50+ years later the earth's age has changed from 1 billion to several billion. Someone was lying then or now.


How can this be? Accept this truth from Carl Sagan, "Science thrives on errors.....cutting them away one by one. False conclusions are drawn all the time through science....but they are drawn tentatively. Hypothesis are formed so they can be disproved....Science gropes and staggers toward understanding." -- Carl Sagan What is Mr. Sagan really saying? Science does not really have the truth at this moment in time and it may never find the truth anytime in the future but men believe they are getting closer to the truth all the time.


Belief void of evidence: The quint essential description of Blind FAITH. I simply present THE TRUTH provided in the Holy Bible, its not MY TRUTH, its not YOUR TRUTH, its God's Truth. To destroy my faith simply prove anything presented in the Word of God to be an absolute lie with no possibility of truth found to exist via a presentation of history actual or applied science.

"

[kudzu]

Problem is dumb fuck, you interject your crap as if you had some form of knowledge on the subject, and in order to have that knowledge one has to believe. You are free to participate, just don't act as if you have a clue as to what you are talking about.

Are you a preterist or historist or what?

Some people study the Bible in tandem with history and archaeology..

[Old Trapper]

Are you a preterist or historist or what?

Some people study the Bible in tandem with history and archaeology..

I received my Masters in Theology, and my Doctorate in Bibliology.

I suppose if I have to accept a label it would be as a Futurist even though I accept the idea that approximately 90% of Biblical prophecy has been fulfilled. Then too, I also believe that prophecy can be past, present, or future. And while some are prophetical others are allegorical.

[kudzu]

I received my Masters in Theology, and my Doctorate in Bibliology.

Really? Where?

[PostmodernProphet]

Bibliology?.....is that actually a thing?.....

[kudzu]

I received my Masters in Theology, and my Doctorate in Bibliology.

I suppose if I have to accept a label it would be as a Futurist even though I accept the idea that approximately 90% of Biblical prophecy has been fulfilled. Then too, I also believe that prophecy can be past, present, or future. And while some are prophetical others are allegorical.

So you must have studied at an Evangelical school???

[Old Trapper]

So you must have studied at an Evangelical school???

Not at all. Non-Denominational.

[Frank Apisa]

A "guess" would infer blind faith void of any real information. The Book, Chapter and Verse are provided from the Word of God...thus there is nothing "blind" concerning the TRUTH. Truth is the only element in this reality that has the power to set you FREE. As THE BOOK details....your faith or the lack thereof cannot deter the God of Creation from manipulating His creation. You act as if the created has authority over the power that created you. Any sum can never be greater than the total from which it was substracted. Its common logic and reason. If human secularism is so authoritative....explain and then reproduce LIFE from nothing. Take a dead example of biological life and reanimate it through the scientific method.


"If you abide in My Word, then you are truly disciples of Mine, and you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." -- John 8:31-32


A universal TRUTH: Men are often full of lies; deceit and treachery (Jer. 9:3-9). We as individual peoples have a tendency to follow a lie before we accept the truth....why? Because lies tickle our ears and tell us things we want to hear......not what we need to hear...THE TRUTH. (Thess. 2:9-12).


Science is a creation of man....should we expect it to be filled with universal truths 100% accurate all the time? Explain how the age of the earth continues to change when the scientific method is engaged. When I was a child learning in school....the age of the earth was theorized by science to be 1 billion years old.....50+ years later the earth's age has changed from 1 billion to several billion. Someone was lying then or now.


How can this be? Accept this truth from Carl Sagan, "Science thrives on errors.....cutting them away one by one. False conclusions are drawn all the time through science....but they are drawn tentatively. Hypothesis are formed so they can be disproved....Science gropes and staggers toward understanding." -- Carl Sagan What is Mr. Sagan really saying? Science does not really have the truth at this moment in time and it may never find the truth anytime in the future but men believe they are getting closer to the truth all the time.


Belief void of evidence: The quint essential description of Blind FAITH. I simply present THE TRUTH provided in the Holy Bible, its not MY TRUTH, its not YOUR TRUTH, its God's Truth. To destroy my faith simply prove anything presented in the Word of God to be an absolute lie with no possibility of truth found to exist via a presentation of history actual or applied science.

"

You are making a TOTALLY BLIND GUESS that a god exists...and that the god is a "creator" god.

Then you are making a TOTALLY BLIND GUESS that the god is the kind of god that wants to "reveal" itself to humans.

Then you are making a TOTALLY BLIND GUESS that the Bible tells the story of that "revelation"...that it tells us, among other things, what pleases and offends that god.

Like I said...you are carrying BLIND GUESSING to an extreme.

[Wolverine]

You don't even realize how badly you are doing in this discussion.

Good. It make me laugh even harder.



Yeah...your sentence here does look like a question to me. Just like the question I asked earlier...the one to which you probably referred.




Gotta school you again.

Your "it's" has lost meaning. Reference what the fuck you are talking about, child...or continue to use English like a not especially bright grammar school kid.

What is "actually a statement?" (That is a question also. Notice the use of the question mark. By the way...not all question form sentences require one, if that is what you are (unsuccessfully) getting at.




Great! We both are.

This is big time win/win.

Let's keep at it. Try not to slink off just because I am kicking your ass as hard as I am.




Oh, I only use it on cocksuckers like you. Well...almost only on cocksuckers like you.

Ball in your court.

Try not to whiff.

Keep patting yourself on the back while losing your arse. Should it not be "This is A big time win/win"?

You lost the argument, so now you resort to changing the subject to grammar, and name calling. Typical!

[Wolverine]

I am a student of the Bible...and one does not have to "believe" in order to discuss the subject.

I have lots of knowledge about the subject...a hell of a lot more than some of the people arguing here, including you and Wolverine.




I do not need your permission to participate.

I am going to participate.

Fuck you.

Take those in whatever order you want.

You are a student of what you think you want the Bible to say, so you can not believe, and act superior! I pity you!!!!!! It's one thing to not believe, you take it to the extreme, signaling that you as those reprobates in Romans, you have been given over to your debased mind. Just like most atheists you should not believe more quietly!!!!!!!

[Wolverine]

A "guess" would infer blind faith void of any real information. The Book, Chapter and Verse are provided from the Word of God...thus there is nothing "blind" concerning the TRUTH. Truth is the only element in this reality that has the power to set you FREE. As THE BOOK details....your faith or the lack thereof cannot deter the God of Creation from manipulating His creation. You act as if the created has authority over the power that created you. Any sum can never be greater than the total from which it was substracted. Its common logic and reason. If human secularism is so authoritative....explain and then reproduce LIFE from nothing. Take a dead example of biological life and reanimate it through the scientific method.


"If you abide in My Word, then you are truly disciples of Mine, and you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." -- John 8:31-32


A universal TRUTH: Men are often full of lies; deceit and treachery (Jer. 9:3-9). We as individual peoples have a tendency to follow a lie before we accept the truth....why? Because lies tickle our ears and tell us things we want to hear......not what we need to hear...THE TRUTH. (Thess. 2:9-12).


Science is a creation of man....should we expect it to be filled with universal truths 100% accurate all the time? Explain how the age of the earth continues to change when the scientific method is engaged. When I was a child learning in school....the age of the earth was theorized by science to be 1 billion years old.....50+ years later the earth's age has changed from 1 billion to several billion. Someone was lying then or now.


How can this be? Accept this truth from Carl Sagan, "Science thrives on errors.....cutting them away one by one. False conclusions are drawn all the time through science....but they are drawn tentatively. Hypothesis are formed so they can be disproved....Science gropes and staggers toward understanding." -- Carl Sagan What is Mr. Sagan really saying? Science does not really have the truth at this moment in time and it may never find the truth anytime in the future but men believe they are getting closer to the truth all the time.


Belief void of evidence: The quint essential description of Blind FAITH. I simply present THE TRUTH provided in the Holy Bible, its not MY TRUTH, its not YOUR TRUTH, its God's Truth. To destroy my faith simply prove anything presented in the Word of God to be an absolute lie with no possibility of truth found to exist via a presentation of history actual or applied science.

"

Wow that is brilliant, thank you, but do not suppose it will shut him up. He has been claiming victory in defeat for awhile now.

[Wolverine]

You are making a TOTALLY BLIND GUESS that a god exists...and that the god is a "creator" god.

Then you are making a TOTALLY BLIND GUESS that the god is the kind of god that wants to "reveal" itself to humans.

Then you are making a TOTALLY BLIND GUESS that the Bible tells the story of that "revelation"...that it tells us, among other things, what pleases and offends that god.

Like I said...you are carrying BLIND GUESSING to an extreme.

Wow, he disposed of your nonsense, and you still try to claim victory, you have no sense of losing with dignity!

[PostmodernProphet]

Wow, he disposed of your nonsense, and you still try to claim victory, you have no sense of losing with dignity!

he blindly guesses that he won.......

[kudzu]

Wow, he disposed of your nonsense, and you still try to claim victory, you have no sense of losing with dignity!

There were two different creation stories from Judah and Israel that were cobbled together after the Babylonian exile.

Christians don't have to be ignorant.

[Frank Apisa]

Wow, he disposed of your nonsense, and you still try to claim victory, you have no sense of losing with dignity!

You apparently think there has been a win here.

Ralph and you both are making a series of blind guesses about the REALITY of existence...and trying to peddle them as fact and knowledge.

You are both doing a miserable job at it. I've seen much better attempts, although they also were failures.

[PostmodernProphet]

Christians don't have to be ignorant.

dang right......its not as if we were atheists, who do.......

[Phantasmal]

There were two different creation stories from Judah and Israel that were cobbled together after the Babylonian exile.

Christians don't have to be ignorant.
I find most of them are concerning the history of their scriptures. I was until I discovered Joseph Campbell, he started the path to my enlightenment.

I don’t debate PMP any longer, I find him steeped in ignorance of modern scripture studies. He stopped his learning in the 70’s.

[kudzu]

I find most of them are concerning the history of their scriptures. I was until I discovered Joseph Campbell, he started the path to my enlightenment.

I don’t debate PMP any longer, I find him steeped in ignorance of modern scripture studies. He stopped his learning in the 70’s.

I can't imagine why anyone would stop learning. I will have to look up Joseph Campbell.

[kudzu]

dang right......its not as if we were atheists, who do.......

There is a reason Jews are considered smart. Have you ever hear of Rambam?

[PostmodernProphet]

There is a reason Jews are considered smart. Have you ever hear of Rambam?

am I still smarter than you if I haven't?........

[Phantasmal]

I can't imagine why anyone would stop learning. I will have to look up Joseph Campbell.
He did an interview with Bill Moyers on PBS, it was life changing for me, I left the Catholic Church

[Phantasmal]

I can't imagine why anyone would stop learning. I will have to look up Joseph Campbell.
https://billmoyers.com/series/joseph-campbell-and-the-power-of-myth-1988/

[PostmodernProphet]

I don’t debate PMP any longer, I find him steeped in ignorance of modern scripture studies. He stopped his learning in the 70’s.

lol.....I got my masters of theology after 2000.....meanwhile you pretend I am steeped in ignorance as I document the fact kudzie is wrong.......its a strange world.....

[kudzu]

am I still smarter than you if I haven't?........

Moses Maimonides, also known as the Rambam, was among the greatest Jewish scholars of all time. He made enduring contributions as a philosopher, legal codifier, physician, political adviser and local legal authority.

[PostmodernProphet]

I find most of them are concerning the history of their scriptures. I was until I discovered Joseph Campbell, he started the path to my enlightenment.


so you fell for his lies?.....

[PostmodernProphet]

Moses Maimonides, also known as the Rambam, was among the greatest Jewish scholars of all time. He made enduring contributions as a philosopher, legal codifier, physician, political adviser and local legal authority.

ah......and I am supposed to give a fuck?........it doesn't change the fact that atheists are ignorant......by the way, is he the one who told you the Psalms were all copies of Ugarit poems that you cannot seem to find anywhere?......

[Phantasmal]

so you fell for his lies?.....
Lol, no, I stopped falling for yours.

[Phantasmal]

lol.....I got my masters of theology after 2000.....meanwhile you pretend I am steeped in ignorance as I document the fact kudzie is wrong.......its a strange world.....
Lol, changed your story, again, you’re such a liar.

[kudzu]

lol.....I got my masters of theology after 2000.....meanwhile you pretend I am steeped in ignorance as I document the fact kudzie is wrong.......its a strange world.....

Where?

[kudzu]

ah......and I am supposed to give a fuck?........it doesn't change the fact that atheists are ignorant......by the way, is he the one who told you the Psalms were all copies of Ugarit poems that you cannot seem to find anywhere?......

Then you must know about Yam.. the sea god as in Yam Suf.

[PostmodernProphet]

Lol, changed your story, again, you’re such a liar.

???.....how so?.....that's always been true....if you think its a lie link to me saying something different....

[PostmodernProphet]

Where?

stalker.......you want a photo of the graduating class with my name next to it?.....

[PostmodernProphet]

Then you must know about Yam.. the sea god as in Yam Suf.

is he the god that the Ugarits asked to drink their wine until sated?......

[Phantasmal]

???.....how so?.....that's always been true....
When you argued against Stringtheory about Evolution you told another story. The posts have conveniently been purged from the system during the system failure.

[PostmodernProphet]

When you argued against Stringtheory about Evolution you told another story. The posts have conveniently been purged from the system during the system failure.

quite honestly I told no different story.......I put it to you kindly that you are either senile and have forgotten or you are lying out your ass.........

[Phantasmal]

quite honestly I told no different story.......I put it to you kindly that you are either senile and have forgotten or you are lying out your ass.........
Nope, you’re a proven liar, in other instances, so carry on. You stated originally that it was in the 70’s, because I commented several times that you needed to crack a more recent text book.

[Wolverine]

You apparently think there has been a win here.

Ralph and you both are making a series of blind guesses about the REALITY of existence...and trying to peddle them as fact and knowledge.

You are both doing a miserable job at it. I've seen much better attempts, although they also were failures.

Yes there has been and you didn't. Between believers on this post we have debunked anything you say, you continue with one argument Blind guess. The only blind guess was you might be able to argue a point I was wrong!

[kudzu]

stalker.......you want a photo of the graduating class with my name next to it?.....

Heavens no.. I don't want your photo or graduating class.. just the name of your school. Was it Dallas Theological Seminary perchance?

[kudzu]

Yes there has been and you didn't. Between believers on this post we have debunked anything you say, you continue with one argument Blind guess. The only blind guess was you might be able to argue a point I was wrong!

No you haven't debunked anything. Just say you believe in the Bible and the supernatural and leave it at that.

[Frank Apisa]

Yes there has been and you didn't. Between believers on this post we have debunked anything you say, you continue with one argument Blind guess. The only blind guess was you might be able to argue a point I was wrong!

There is no way any of you can "debunk" my main assertion...namely that all you are doing is making blind guesses about the true nature of the REALITY of existence.

You are all blindly guessing there is a god (a single god)...and you are all blindly guessing that the Bible accurately describes that god and tells us what pleases and offends that god.

ALL YOU ARE DOING IS MAKING BLIND GUESSES ABOUT THE REALITY.

If you want to kid yourself and pretend you, or any one else, has debunked that, fine with me.

I'll just have my say on the matter.

[Wolverine]

No you haven't debunked anything. Just say you believe in the Bible and the supernatural and leave it at that.

I did! What is more open minded what I believe in, or what you believe in? You need a science experiment to believe anything, which hasn't proven anything even though you say it has.

[kudzu]

is he the god that the Ugarits asked to drink their wine until sated?......

Did you actually miss the reference to Yam Suf?

[Wolverine]

There is no way any of you can "debunk" my main assertion...namely that all you are doing is making blind guesses about the true nature of the REALITY of existence.

You are all blindly guessing there is a god (a single god)...and you are all blindly guessing that the Bible accurately describes that god and tells us what pleases and offends that god.

ALL YOU ARE DOING IS MAKING BLIND GUESSES ABOUT THE REALITY.

If you want to kid yourself and pretend you, or any one else, has debunked that, fine with me.

I'll just have my say on the matter.

Actually I am quoting a History book, you have nothing but failed hypothesis on what you believe. You have been tried, and found wanting, when it comes to knowledge of the old, and new covenant, that you claim to be an expert on!

[Frank Apisa]

I did! What is more open minded what I believe in, or what you believe in? You need a science experiment to believe anything, which hasn't proven anything even though you say it has.

Substitute the words "blindly guess" for "believe" in your comments...and see what they sound like to you!

[kudzu]

I did! What is more open minded what I believe in, or what you believe in? You need a science experiment to believe anything, which hasn't proven anything even though you say it has.

So you believe in the supernatural and fortune tellers. Not a problem.

[Frank Apisa]

Actually I am quoting a History book...

If you think the Bible is a "history book" you are much further gone than I supposed. I acknowledge that the Bible has some history in it...a rather self-serving, fanciful history of the early Hebrew peoples. But the mythology interspersed is no more "history" than the Greek and Roman myths of gods.


...you have nothing but failed hypothesis on what you believe.

I do not fucking do "believing" Jerk-off.

What specifically are you supposing I am blindly guessing about?




You have been tried, and found wanting, when it comes to knowledge of the old, and new covenant, that you claim to be an expert on!

I am learned on that issue...and you have not even come close to finding me wanting on knowledge of it.

You just are not able to actually argue the issues...because you realize that the words of JESUS contradict almost everything you are asserting.

But, I am here for you. I'll help you get to the truth.

[Wolverine]

So you believe in the supernatural and fortune tellers. Not a problem.

I believe that God created the heavens and the Earth, don't feel obliged to agree but what I believe makes more sense! Fortune tellers?

[Wolverine]

If you think the Bible is a "history book" you are much further gone than I supposed. I acknowledge that the Bible has some history in it...a rather self-serving, fanciful history of the early Hebrew peoples. But the mythology interspersed is no more "history" than the Greek and Roman myths of gods.



I do not fucking do "believing" Jerk-off.

What specifically are you supposing I am blindly guessing about?





I am learned on that issue...and you have not even come close to finding me wanting on knowledge of it.

You just are not able to actually argue the issues...because you realize that the words of JESUS contradict almost everything you are asserting.

But, I am here for you. I'll help you get to the truth.

:laugh: You are such a clown, a internet tough guy clown, you have yet to show me anything, that would make me even remotely question my faith. I have had better conversations with street lamps,( i was a drinker) they are bright you are not. Thank goodness you do not take Mondays off because you chase away the blues with your humor!

[Frank Apisa]

:laugh: You are such a clown, a internet tough guy clown, you have yet to show me anything, that would make me even remotely question my faith.

Not even trying to do that.

You are stuck being stone-headed about your blind guesses.

No problem.




I have had better conversations with street lamps,( i was a drinker) they are bright you are not. Thank goodness you do not take Mondays off because you chase away the blues with your humor!

You are a nut case...but that's okay. Most defenders of religion in sites like this are.

Glad you are in good humor...because I am having a ball. So...we are both enjoying ourselves.

Great.

[Ralph]

Thus far.....NO ONE has been able to debunk....through the scientific method or history actual, ANYTHING revealed in the Holy Scriptures. What we are witnessing is nothing but ad hominem BS presented with no testable, repeatable objective truth. Holy Scriptures "1"......human secularism "0". Game over when the group that declares they are working within the bounds of science.....demonstrates they do not have the ability to objectively prove anything as all the Darwinian cultism is based upon blind faith. Blind faith that everything came from nothing, blind faith that dead matter can morph into biological life, blind faith that 2 basic elements (Hydrogen and Helium) morphed into all the elements found on the periodic table....actually its funnier than the hell they will sooner or later find themselves as they accuse those who accept the superior qualities of the force that did create this reality as basing that belief on BLIND FAITH. Talk about a pot calling a kettle black.

Reality: The scientific method of study, called the EMPIRICAL METHOD is nothing but observation and experimentation of that which is observed. For anything to be accepted as a matter of science it must be observed in a measurable (quantifiable) manner and the event in question, before it can be accepted as a fact of science must be REPEATABLE AND CONSTANT each and every time, regardless of place.

If scientists cannot see (witness) something happen and set up a situation (experiment) at another time and place and constantly arriving at the same result.....each and every time, then there can be no EMPIRICAL SCIENCTIFIC evidence.

Some claim to PROVE there is no God via a presentation of empirical evidences acquired through science.....a blatant lie. Why? Logic and Reason. First. History is not Science as it cannot be observed and repeated it can only be studied via records found by man. Thus history is incapable of disproving the existence of God. Why? God is a spirit with no physically testable matter. God is a spirit (John 4:24) with no physical/material existence (Luke 24:39).

Its true. I cannot prove via the scientific method that God does exist.....anymore than the human secular atheist can disprove via the historical or scientific empirical method that God does not exist. For the atheist to be able to prove there is no God (a spiritual entity that exists in a realm that is superior to the physical realm) any atheist would have to be able to observe ALL THE UNIVERSE at one time, if not what is to prove that God exists in area of the universe that was not observed, not only would the atheist need to be omnipresent in the known universe....they would need to be omnipresent within the spiritual realm at the same time. In other words in order to prove that God does not exist.....one would have to be God with the powers of omnipresence and omnipotence.


There is the ultimate paradox. In order to actually belief there is no God.....one first must claim to have the power of God. Another reality: Some of mankind has been attempting to prove since the beginning of time.....that the created (man) has illogically and unreasonably became superior to the whole from which they were substracted (created).



Why has no one provided the empirical evidence that voids my faith in the God of creation? Its impossible because my faith is not blind but based upon history actual and applicable science.

[Frank Apisa]

Thus far.....NO ONE has been able to debunk....through the scientific method or history actual, ANYTHING revealed in the Holy Scriptures. What we are witnessing is nothing but ad hominem BS presented with no testable, repeatable objective truth. Holy Scriptures "1"......human secularism "0". Game over when the group that declares they are working within the bounds of science.....demonstrates they do not have the ability to objectively prove anything as all the Darwinian cultism is based upon blind faith. Blind faith that everything came from nothing, blind faith that dead matter can morph into biological life, blind faith that 2 basic elements (Hydrogen and Helium) morphed into all the elements found on the periodic table....actually its funnier than the hell they will sooner or later find themselves as they accuse those who accept the superior qualities of the force that did create this reality as basing that belief on BLIND FAITH. Talk about a pot calling a kettle black.

Reality: The scientific method of study, called the EMPIRICAL METHOD is nothing but observation and experimentation of that which is observed. For anything to be accepted as a matter of science it must be observed in a measurable (quantifiable) manner and the event in question, before it can be accepted as a fact of science must be REPEATABLE AND CONSTANT each and every time, regardless of place.

If scientists cannot see (witness) something happen and set up a situation (experiment) at another time and place and constantly arriving at the same result.....each and every time, then there can be no EMPIRICAL SCIENCTIFIC evidence.

Some claim to PROVE there is no God via a presentation of empirical evidences acquired through science.....a blatant lie. Why? Logic and Reason. First. History is not Science as it cannot be observed and repeated it can only be studied via records found by man. Thus history is incapable of disproving the existence of God. Why? God is a spirit with no physically testable matter. God is a spirit (John 4:24) with no physical/material existence (Luke 24:39).

Its true. I cannot prove via the scientific method that God does exist.....anymore than the human secular atheist can disprove via the historical or scientific empirical method that God does not exist. For the atheist to be able to prove there is no God (a spiritual entity that exists in a realm that is superior to the physical realm) any atheist would have to be able to observe ALL THE UNIVERSE at one time, if not what is to prove that God exists in area of the universe that was not observed, not only would the atheist need to be omnipresent in the known universe....they would need to be omnipresent within the spiritual realm at the same time. In other words in order to prove that God does not exist.....one would have to be God with the powers of omnipresence and omnipotence.


There is the ultimate paradox. In order to actually belief there is no God.....one first must claim to have the power of God. Another reality: Some of mankind has been attempting to prove since the beginning of time.....that the created (man) has illogically and unreasonably became superior to the whole from which they were substracted (created).



Why has no one provided the empirical evidence that voids my faith in the God of creation? Its impossible because my faith is not blind but based upon history actual and applicable science.

Wouldn't it have been easier (and more honest) for you to just post, "Yeah, I am making a blind guess and calling it "a belief" and I am sticking with that blind guess no matter what...and calling that "faith?"

[Frank Apisa]

Thus far.....NO ONE has been able to debunk....through the scientific method or history actual, ANYTHING revealed in the Holy Scriptures. What we are witnessing is nothing but ad hominem BS presented with no testable, repeatable objective truth. Holy Scriptures "1"......human secularism "0". Game over when the group that declares they are working within the bounds of science.....demonstrates they do not have the ability to objectively prove anything as all the Darwinian cultism is based upon blind faith. Blind faith that everything came from nothing, blind faith that dead matter can morph into biological life, blind faith that 2 basic elements (Hydrogen and Helium) morphed into all the elements found on the periodic table....actually its funnier than the hell they will sooner or later find themselves as they accuse those who accept the superior qualities of the force that did create this reality as basing that belief on BLIND FAITH. Talk about a pot calling a kettle black.

Reality: The scientific method of study, called the EMPIRICAL METHOD is nothing but observation and experimentation of that which is observed. For anything to be accepted as a matter of science it must be observed in a measurable (quantifiable) manner and the event in question, before it can be accepted as a fact of science must be REPEATABLE AND CONSTANT each and every time, regardless of place.

If scientists cannot see (witness) something happen and set up a situation (experiment) at another time and place and constantly arriving at the same result.....each and every time, then there can be no EMPIRICAL SCIENCTIFIC evidence.

Some claim to PROVE there is no God via a presentation of empirical evidences acquired through science.....a blatant lie. Why? Logic and Reason. First. History is not Science as it cannot be observed and repeated it can only be studied via records found by man. Thus history is incapable of disproving the existence of God. Why? God is a spirit with no physically testable matter. God is a spirit (John 4:24) with no physical/material existence (Luke 24:39).

Its true. I cannot prove via the scientific method that God does exist.....anymore than the human secular atheist can disprove via the historical or scientific empirical method that God does not exist. For the atheist to be able to prove there is no God (a spiritual entity that exists in a realm that is superior to the physical realm) any atheist would have to be able to observe ALL THE UNIVERSE at one time, if not what is to prove that God exists in area of the universe that was not observed, not only would the atheist need to be omnipresent in the known universe....they would need to be omnipresent within the spiritual realm at the same time. In other words in order to prove that God does not exist.....one would have to be God with the powers of omnipresence and omnipotence.


There is the ultimate paradox. In order to actually belief there is no God.....one first must claim to have the power of God. Another reality: Some of mankind has been attempting to prove since the beginning of time.....that the created (man) has illogically and unreasonably became superior to the whole from which they were substracted (created).



Why has no one provided the empirical evidence that voids my faith in the God of creation? Its impossible because my faith is not blind but based upon history actual and applicable science.

By the way...agnostics do not attempt to "prove there is no god or are no gods."

They are satisfied with being truthful...and acknowledging that they do not know.

Neither do you...but that move to be honest about it seems to evade you.

[kudzu]

I believe that God created the heavens and the Earth, don't feel obliged to agree but what I believe makes more sense! Fortune tellers?

Yeah .. prophets.. They had schools for prophets in Israel.. Evidently it was a lucrative trade. Have you ever heard of Rambam?

[Wolverine]

Not even trying to do that.

You are stuck being stone-headed about your blind guesses.

No problem.





You are a nut case...but that's okay. Most defenders of religion in sites like this are.

Glad you are in good humor...because I am having a ball. So...we are both enjoying ourselves.

Great.

Yeah sure you are, I pity your non belief in my absolute God, I really do. What is your explanation, since you don't do belief for everything that is, blind luck?

[Wolverine]

Yeah .. prophets.. They had schools for prophets in Israel.. Evidently it was a lucrative trade. Have you ever heard of Rambam?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maimonides

[Wolverine]

Yeah .. prophets.. They had schools for prophets in Israel.. Evidently it was a lucrative trade. Have you ever heard of Rambam?

How many of them foretold perfectly the coming of Christ like Isiah did!

Chew on this!
Prophecy: The Messiah would be from the lineage of King David.
Jeremiah 23:5
600 B.C. Fulfillment: “Jesus … the son of David …”
Luke 3:23, 31
4 B.C.
Prophecy: The Messiah would be betrayed for 30 pieces of silver.
Zechariah 11:13
487 B.C. Fulfillment: “They gave him thirty pieces of silver.”
Matthew 26:15
30 A.D.
Prophecy: The Messiah would have his hands and feet pierced.
Psalm 22:16
1000 B.C. Fulfillment: “They came to a place called The Skull. All three were crucified there-Jesus on the center cross, and the two criminals on either side.”
Luke 23:33
30 A.D.
Prophecy: People would cast lots for the Messiah’s clothing.
Psalm 22:18
1000 B.C. Fulfillment: “The soldiers … took his robe, but it was seamless, woven in one piece from the top. So they said, ‘Let’s not tear it but throw dice to see who gets it.’ ”
John 19:23-24
30 A.D.
Prophecy: The Messiah would appear riding on a donkey.
Zechariah 9:9
500 B.C. Fulfillment: “They brought the animals to him and threw their garments over the colt, and he sat on it.”
Matthew 21:7
30 A,D.
Prophecy: A messenger would be sent to herald the Messiah.
Malachi 3:1
500 B.C. Fulfillment: John told them, “I baptize with water, but right here in the crowd is someone you do not know.”
John 1:26
27 A.D.

The eight prophecies we’ve reviewed about the Messiah were written by men from different times and places between about 500 and 1,000 years before Jesus was born. Thus there was no opportunity for collusion among them. Notice too, the specificity.

Bible scholars tell us that nearly 300 references to 61 specific prophecies of the Messiah were fulfilled by Jesus Christ. The odds against one person fulfilling that many prophecies would be beyond all mathematical possibility. It could never happen, no matter how much time was allotted. One mathematician’s estimate of those impossible odds is “one chance in a trillion, trillion, trillion, trillion, trillion, trillion, trillion, trillion, trillion, trillion, trillion, trillion, trillion.”³

[kudzu]

:laugh: You are such a clown, a internet tough guy clown, you have yet to show me anything, that would make me even remotely question my faith. I have had better conversations with street lamps,( i was a drinker) they are bright you are not. Thank goodness you do not take Mondays off because you chase away the blues with your humor!

Have you been back to school since you stopped drinking? BTW, hat's off. My bro celebrated 37 years sober this month.

[Wolverine]

By the way...agnostics do not attempt to "prove there is no god or are no gods."

They are satisfied with being truthful...and acknowledging that they do not know.

Neither do you...but that move to be honest about it seems to evade you.

It shows because people may make fun of you for faith, you choose to not have any.

[kudzu]

How many of them foretold perfectly the coming of Christ like Isiah did!

Chew on this!
Prophecy: The Messiah would be from the lineage of King David.
Jeremiah 23:5
600 B.C. Fulfillment: “Jesus … the son of David …”
Luke 3:23, 31
4 B.C.
Prophecy: The Messiah would be betrayed for 30 pieces of silver.
Zechariah 11:13
487 B.C. Fulfillment: “They gave him thirty pieces of silver.”
Matthew 26:15
30 A.D.
Prophecy: The Messiah would have his hands and feet pierced.
Psalm 22:16
1000 B.C. Fulfillment: “They came to a place called The Skull. All three were crucified there-Jesus on the center cross, and the two criminals on either side.”
Luke 23:33
30 A.D.
Prophecy: People would cast lots for the Messiah’s clothing.
Psalm 22:18
1000 B.C. Fulfillment: “The soldiers … took his robe, but it was seamless, woven in one piece from the top. So they said, ‘Let’s not tear it but throw dice to see who gets it.’ ”
John 19:23-24
30 A.D.
Prophecy: The Messiah would appear riding on a donkey.
Zechariah 9:9
500 B.C. Fulfillment: “They brought the animals to him and threw their garments over the colt, and he sat on it.”
Matthew 21:7
30 A,D.
Prophecy: A messenger would be sent to herald the Messiah.
Malachi 3:1
500 B.C. Fulfillment: John told them, “I baptize with water, but right here in the crowd is someone you do not know.”
John 1:26
27 A.D.

The eight prophecies we’ve reviewed about the Messiah were written by men from different times and places between about 500 and 1,000 years before Jesus was born. Thus there was no opportunity for collusion among them. Notice too, the specificity.

Bible scholars tell us that nearly 300 references to 61 specific prophecies of the Messiah were fulfilled by Jesus Christ. The odds against one person fulfilling that many prophecies would be beyond all mathematical possibility. It could never happen, no matter how much time was allotted. One mathematician’s estimate of those impossible odds is “one chance in a trillion, trillion, trillion, trillion, trillion, trillion, trillion, trillion, trillion, trillion, trillion, trillion, trillion.”³

OMG.. Isaiah was talking about Israel.. The suffering servant is Israel.

[Wolverine]

Have you been back to school since you stopped drinking? BTW, hat's off. My bro celebrated 37 years sober this month.

22 years sober thanks to Christ my Savior! Good for your brother, seriously! My textbook is the Bible!

[Wolverine]

OMG.. Isaiah was talking about Israel.. The suffering servant is Israel.

He was specifically talking about Jesus in Chapter 53

[Frank Apisa]

Yeah sure you are, I pity your non belief in my absolute God, I really do. What is your explanation, since you don't do belief for everything that is, blind luck?

I do not do "believing"...which is just a way to hide a blind guess.

I don't make a guess on whether there are gods or not.

I do not know if gods exist or not;
I see no reason to suspect gods CANNOT EXIST...that the existence of gods is impossible;
I see no reason to suspect that gods MUST EXIST...that gods are needed to explain existence;
I do not see enough unambiguous evidence upon which to base a meaningful guess in either direction...

...so I don't.

You ought to give it a try.

[Frank Apisa]

It shows because people may make fun of you for faith, you choose to not have any.

No one has ever made fun of me for "faith."

I simply acknowledge that I do not know if gods exist or not.

It is the truth.

You ought to give that a shot some time.

[PostmodernProphet]

Nope, you’re a proven liar, in other instances, so carry on. You stated originally that it was in the 70’s, because I commented several times that you needed to crack a more recent text book.

1) prove I lied....
2) my JD degree was in the 70s.....
3) fuck yourself....

[PostmodernProphet]

Heavens no.. I don't want your photo or graduating class.. just the name of your school. Was it Dallas Theological Seminary perchance?

no......not a fundamentalist school.....go away and annoy someone who gives a fuck what atheists believe......

[PostmodernProphet]

OMG.. Isaiah was talking about Israel.. The suffering servant is Israel.

no, dumbfuck, it is not.....

[PostmodernProphet]

Did you actually miss the reference to Yam Suf?

I ignored the reference to Yarn Suf because it had nothing to do with what we are discussing.....I have to do that a lot when you post.....

[PostmodernProphet]

Have you ever heard of Rambam?

you can always tell when kudzik posts something irrelevant.......he begins the sentence with "have you ever heard of......."......

[leaningright]

One is old...the other is current.

[Phantasmal]

1) prove I lied....
2) my JD degree was in the 70s.....
3) fuck yourself....

3. Such a loving thought from a Christian, no wonder I know you lie.

[Ralph]

Wouldn't it have been easier (and more honest) for you to just post, "Yeah, I am making a blind guess and calling it "a belief" and I am sticking with that blind guess no matter what...and calling that "faith?"

Christian faith is not blind, its based upon the Word and its transcendent authority. Faith constructed upon Biblical Evidence is not BLIND just as the author of John declared, "And truly Jesus did many other sings in the presence of His disciples, which are not written in this book, but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God...…" -- John 20:30-31


Faith is a conviction that things not seen are true. The US court system has been using this method of determining truth beyond the reason of doubt since the inception of the US rule of law. Its called "PRIMA FACIE" truth. Educate yourself. ;) When truth is beyond the capacity of science to measure or quantify....such as historical truth or unobserved truth, one must use reason and logic to deduct truth beyond the reason of doubt. Thus far your ad hominem BS drabble has produced nothing that would give anyone reason to doubt the existence of an unseen supernatural realm that is superior to nature. Unless you have a Super Natural -0- meter in your pocket, just how are you to measure or quantify that which is beyond the realm of physics to measure? Produce that tool if you have one in your hip pocket. :laugh:

Conclusion: God has given up on all such reprobates, "Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.....Wherefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts unto uncleanliness...." -- Romans 1:18-28

As always, "It is better to hear the rebuke of the wise than for a man to hear the songs of a fool." -- Eccl. 7:5:bigthink:


But it is as my PAP used to say......its good to be entertained by the sound of your words rattling in your head so you can listen to your own words. You have wasted an entire thread and not pro0duced anything that can be objectively measured for truth, such as the words found in scripture that are read the same for everyone (if you can comprehend simple English). The scriptures are real and have existed for thousands of years....thus, Objectivity exists to measure. When the Book, Chapter and Verse are produced......there is no room for deception..

[PostmodernProphet]

3. Such a loving thought from a Christian, no wonder I know you lie.

sorry.....I have no regrets about what I call deliberate liars.......

[hypGnosis]

Faith is a conviction that things not seen are true. The US court system has been using this method of determining truth beyond the reason of doubt since the inception of the US rule of law. Its called "PRIMA FACIE" truth. Educate yourself ...

... "Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools...


Ralphie, ol' boy, it is you who seriously needs a time-out for education.

Prima Facie directly translates from Latin as "First Sight"

Even the word "evidence" has among its etymological roots the Latin word for "seeing".

So while there is some merit in your claim that Faith being a conviction that things *NOT SEEN* are true, your shot yourself in the foot by appealing to the necessity of seeing/sight.

And if there ever was a biblical verse exemplifying psychological projection, it is "Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools..."
.

[kudzu]

I ignored the reference to Yarn Suf because it had nothing to do with what we are discussing.....I have to do that a lot when you post.....

I thought we were talking about Prima Facie here. Yam or Yamm is the Canaanite god of the sea..

It helps in understanding that the Exodus is a metaphor not history.

[kudzu]

Ralphie, ol' boy, it is you who seriously needs a time-out for education.

Prima Facie directly translates from Latin as "First Sight"

Even the word "evidence" has among its etymological roots the Latin word for "seeing".

So while there is some merit in your claim that Faith being a conviction that things *NOT SEEN* are true, your shot yourself in the foot by appealing to the necessity of seeing/sight.

And if there ever was a biblical verse exemplifying psychological projection, it is "Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools..."
.

Prima facie evidence shows the epic Bible stories to be myth and metaphor NOT history.


Its valuable didactic literature NOT science or history.

[kudzu]

no, dumbfuck, it is not.....

Prima facie here remember?


Despite strong objections from conservative Christian apologists, the prevailing rabbinic interpretation of Isaiah 53 ascribes the “servant” to the nation of Israel who silently endured unimaginable suffering at the hands of its gentile oppressors. The speakers, in this most-debated chapter, are the stunned kings of nations who will bear witness to the messianic age and the final vindication of the Jewish people following their long and bitter exile. “Who would have believed our report?,” the astonished and contrite world leaders wonder aloud in dazed bewilderment (53:1).1

The stimulus for the world’s baffled response contained in this famed cluster of chapters at the end of the Book of Isaiah is the unexpected salvation of Israel. The redemption of God’s people is the central theme in the preceding verse (52:12) where the “you” signifies the Jewish people who are sheltered and delivered by God. Moreover, the “afflicted barren woman” in the following chapter is protected and saved by God, and is also universally recognized as the nation of Israel2 (54:1).

The well-worn claim frequently advanced by Christian apologists who argue that the noted Jewish commentator, Rashi (1040 CE – 1105 CE), was the first to identify the suffering servant of Isaiah 53 with the nation of Israel is inaccurate and misleading.

In fact, Origen, a prominent and influential church father, conceded in the year 248 CE – eight centuries before Rashi was born – that the consensus among the Jews in his time was that Isaiah 53 “bore reference to the whole [Jewish] people, regarded as one individual, and as being in a state of dispersion and suffering, in order that many proselytes might be gained, on account of the dispersion of the Jews among numerous heathen nations.”3

The broad consensus among Jewish, and even some Christian commentators, that the “servant” in Isaiah 52-53 refers to the nation of Israel is understandable. Isaiah 53, which is the fourth of four renowned Servant Songs, is umbilically connected to its preceding chapters. The “servant” in each of the three previous Servant Songs is plainly and repeatedly identified as the nation of Israel.

Isaiah 41:8-9

But you, Israel, my servant, Jacob, whom I have chosen, the offspring of Abraham, my friend; you whom I took from the ends of the earth, and called from its farthest corners, saying to you, “You are my servant, I have chosen you and not cast you off.”

Isaiah 44:1

But now hear, O Jacob my servant, Israel whom I have chosen!

Isaiah 44:21

Remember these things, O Jacob, and Israel, for you are my servant; I formed you; you are my servant; O Israel, you will not be forgotten by me.

Isaiah 45:4

For the sake of my servant Jacob, and Israel my chosen, I called you by your name, I name you, though you do not know me.

Isaiah 48:20

Go out from Babylon, flee from Chaldea, declare this with a shout of joy, proclaim it, send it out to the end of the earth; say, “The Lord has redeemed his servant Jacob!”

Isaiah 49:3

And he said to me, “You are my servant, Israel, in whom I will be glorified.”

According to this widespread rabbinic opinion, Isaiah 53 contains a deeply moving narrative which world leaders will cry aloud in the messianic age. The humbled kings of nations (52: 15) will confess that Jewish suffering occurred as a direct result of “our own iniquity,” (53:5) e.g., depraved Jew-hatred, rather than, as they previously thought, the stubborn blindness of the Jews.

The stunned reaction of the world’s nations to the unexpected vindication and redemption of the Jewish nation in the messianic age is a recurring theme throughout the Hebrew Scriptures.4 Israel’s neighbors will be amazed when their age-old assessment of the Jew is finally proven wrong. Throughout Israel’s long and bitter exile, the nations mistakenly attributed the miserable predicament of the Jew to his stubborn rejection of the world’s religions.

In the End of Days, however, the gentiles will discover what was until then unimaginable – the unwavering Jew was, in fact, all this time faithful to the one true God. On the other hand, “We despised and held him of no account” (53:3).

In essence, the final and complete redemption of the Jews, to which the stunned nations will bear witness, contradicts everything Israel’s gentile neighbors had ever previously anticipated, heard, or considered (52:15). “Who would have believed our report?” the kings will ask with their mouths wide open in amazement (53:1). The curtain of blindness is finally lifted when the “holy Arm of the Lord before the eyes of all the nations, all the ends of the earth will witness the salvation of His people” (52:10).

https://outreachjudaism.org/gods-suffering-servant-isaiah-53/

[Frank Apisa]

Christian faith is not blind, its based upon the Word and its transcendent authority. Faith constructed upon Biblical Evidence is not BLIND just as the author of John declared, "And truly Jesus did many other sings in the presence of His disciples, which are not written in this book, but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God...…" -- John 20:30-31


Faith is a conviction that things not seen are true. The US court system has been using this method of determining truth beyond the reason of doubt since the inception of the US rule of law. Its called "PRIMA FACIE" truth. Educate yourself. ;) When truth is beyond the capacity of science to measure or quantify....such as historical truth or unobserved truth, one must use reason and logic to deduct truth beyond the reason of doubt. Thus far your ad hominem BS drabble has produced nothing that would give anyone reason to doubt the existence of an unseen supernatural realm that is superior to nature. Unless you have a Super Natural -0- meter in your pocket, just how are you to measure or quantify that which is beyond the realm of physics to measure? Produce that tool if you have one in your hip pocket. :laugh:

Conclusion: God has given up on all such reprobates, "Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.....Wherefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts unto uncleanliness...." -- Romans 1:18-28

As always, "It is better to hear the rebuke of the wise than for a man to hear the songs of a fool." -- Eccl. 7:5:bigthink:


But it is as my PAP used to say......its good to be entertained by the sound of your words rattling in your head so you can listen to your own words. You have wasted an entire thread and not pro0duced anything that can be objectively measured for truth, such as the words found in scripture that are read the same for everyone (if you can comprehend simple English). The scriptures are real and have existed for thousands of years....thus, Objectivity exists to measure. When the Book, Chapter and Verse are produced......there is no room for deception..

YOU people are all making a blind guess that a god exists...and that the Bible tells you about that god...what pleases it and what offends it. And you are being stone-headed in insisting that your blind guess is correct.

None of you are honest or ethical enough to acknowledge that is what is happening...so you use words to disguise the fact that you are blindly guessing (I "believe")...and you use words to disguise the fact that you are being stone-headed about your blind guesses (I have "faith.")

Collectively, you people are a joke. In order to adhere to your religion, you must break a fundamental tenet of it: You must lie and be deceitful; you cannot tell the truth or be ethical.

So...do so.

The smart thing to do is to do it in private.

But, some of you insist that it be done in a public forum...and there are those of us who are going to tell you the truth...that you are blindly guessing.

And I suspect that most of us...as I am...will laugh at the rationalizations (lies) you must tell in order to make your pathetic defenses.

[Wolverine]

YOU people are all making a blind guess that a god exists...and that the Bible tells you about that god...what pleases it and what offends it. And you are being stone-headed in insisting that your blind guess is correct.

None of you are honest or ethical enough to acknowledge that is what is happening...so you use words to disguise the fact that you are blindly guessing (I "believe")...and you use words to disguise the fact that you are being stone-headed about your blind guesses (I have "faith.")

Collectively, you people are a joke. In order to adhere to your religion, you must break a fundamental tenet of it: You must lie and be deceitful; you cannot tell the truth or be ethical.

So...do so.

The smart thing to do is to do it in private.

But, some of you insist that it be done in a public forum...and there are those of us who are going to tell you the truth...that you are blindly guessing.

And I suspect that most of us...as I am...will laugh at the rationalizations (lies) you must tell in order to make your pathetic defenses.

:laugh: The go to answer for Frank Nuh Uh! Wait, the truth, I thought you didn't know! The so called lies are backed up by the inspired word of God sparky!

[Frank Apisa]

:laugh: The go to answer for Frank Nuh Uh! Wait, the truth, I thought you didn't know!

Sorry, I forgot I was responding to an asshole.

I DO NOT KNOW IF THERE ARE GODS OR NOT...and neither do you.

I DO KNOW that you are just blindly guessing.

Can you understand that? If not, just ask a high schooler to explain it.




The so called lies are backed up by the inspired word of God sparky!

Sure.

And if the so-called lies were about Zeus...Zeus would have been the inspiration.

Jesus H. Christ. Do you people even think?

[Frank Apisa]

:laugh: The go to answer for Frank Nuh Uh! Wait, the truth, I thought you didn't know! The so called lies are backed up by the inspired word of God sparky!

You are blindly guessing there is a god...

...and then blindly guessing that the god is "inspiring" you.

It more likely is insanity at work here.

[PostmodernProphet]

I thought we were talking about Prima Facie here. Yam or Yamm is the Canaanite god of the sea..

It helps in understanding that the Exodus is a metaphor not history.

no one needs to share your delusions about Exodus and certainly Yammie is irrelevant to Exodus in the first place.....as to your reference of Prima Facie, if you are referring to evidence instead of another pagan god, nothing in your posts is evidence of anything except your blind devotion to atheist ignorance......

[PostmodernProphet]

Prima facie evidence shows the epic Bible stories to be myth and metaphor NOT history.


Its valuable didactic literature NOT science or history.

foolish atheist....