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Grugore
12-07-2018, 03:06 PM
Millions of years of winds and tides have managed to create this beautiful sand castle.
8216

Jack
12-07-2018, 03:12 PM
Somehow, someway, you're going to say "Jesus made this Sand Castle'. (I just have a feeling on this one)

Frank Apisa
12-07-2018, 03:57 PM
Somehow, someway, you're going to say "Jesus made this Sand Castle'. (I just have a feeling on this one)

I don't think so. I think he is going to say that everything that exists has had to have a cause. And then he is going to say that "the cause" is a god that had no cause.

Jack
12-07-2018, 04:34 PM
I will accept that.

Bobb
12-11-2018, 05:14 PM
No Atheist would believe in Evolution is they could think of any viable natural explanation for human existence.

ZenMode
03-23-2022, 09:55 AM
Millions of years of winds and tides have managed to create this beautiful sand castle.
8216

Even if you believe that a god made everything, you have no idea which god. Believers in other religions have their gods, their books, their creation stories and are as confident as you that their god/religion in the 'real' one.

BidenPresident
03-23-2022, 10:03 AM
Even if you believe that a god made everything, you have no idea which god. Believers in other religions have their gods, their books, their creation stories and are as confident as you that their god/religion in the 'real' one.

Indeed. One God and 10,000 different religions.

ZenMode
03-23-2022, 10:10 AM
Indeed. One God and 10,000 different religions.

Which one god? One of the thousands that man has believed in throughout history, your god? A god that man has no awareness of?

BidenPresident
03-23-2022, 10:11 AM
Which one god? One of the thousands that man has believed in throughout history, your god? A god that man has no awareness of?

What I said.

ZenMode
03-23-2022, 10:26 AM
What I said.

You're confident that your god is the one true god. I get it. Muslims, Jews, Buddhists are no different than you.

BidenPresident
03-23-2022, 10:27 AM
You're confident that your god is the one true god. I get it. Muslims, Jews, Buddhists are no different than you.

Never said that.

ZenMode
03-23-2022, 10:36 AM
Never said that.


You aren't saying much, so I don't have much to respond to at this point.

BidenPresident
03-23-2022, 10:37 AM
You aren't saying much, so I don't have much to respond to at this point.

Good point. You don't seem very bright.

ZenMode
03-23-2022, 10:52 AM
Good point. You don't seem very bright.

The fact that you "choose" to be vague and evasive isn't a reflection of my brightness.

BidenPresident
03-23-2022, 10:53 AM
The fact that you "choose" to be vague and evasive isn't a reflection of my brightness.

I did not say the God I believe in is the one true God. You wrongly inferred that.

ZenMode
03-23-2022, 11:01 AM
I did not say the God I believe in is the one true God. You wrongly inferred that.
Are you saying that you believe there is a God, but you don't believe in, or at least don't worship, that God?

BidenPresident
03-23-2022, 11:03 AM
Are you saying that you believe there is a God, but you don't believe in, or at least don't worship, that God?

I am saying my idea of God is not similar to most religions. I barely have a concept of God.

ZenMode
03-23-2022, 11:11 AM
I am saying my idea of God is not similar to most religions. I barely have a concept of God.

Does this god have a consciousnesses that would allow it to intentionally create the universe and life or is it just some type of power without consciousness?

BidenPresident
03-23-2022, 11:13 AM
Does this god have a consciousnesses that would allow it to intentionally create the universe and life or is it just some type of power without consciousness?

Intelligence. Not a subject or agency; not a will.

ZenMode
03-23-2022, 11:49 AM
Intelligence. Not a subject or agency; not a will.

Ok, I don't necessarily see how you would find intelligence without some level of agency or consciousness, but this is not a god of man-made religions which most definitely do have consciousness and human traits.

BidenPresident
03-23-2022, 11:51 AM
Ok, I don't necessarily see how you would find intelligence without some level of agency or consciousness, but this is not a god of man-made religions which most definitely do have consciousness and human traits.

God could be the very concept of consciousness.

Geeko Sportivo
03-23-2022, 12:01 PM
God! If you are listening............

https://images.unsplash.com/photo-1571620874594-d6df8b47f708?ixlib=rb-1.2.1&ixid=MnwxMjA3fDB8MHxleHBsb3JlLWZlZWR8NHx8fGVufDB8f Hx8&w=1000&q=80

ZenMode
03-23-2022, 12:05 PM
God could be the very concept of consciousness.

What is consciousness without something (i.e. humans) to experience it? In other words, if your god actually was consciousness, and there were no beings to experience it, would your god exist?

BidenPresident
03-23-2022, 12:06 PM
What is consciousness without something (i.e. humans) to experience it? In other words, if your god actually was consciousness, and there were no beings to experience it, would your god exist?

There would be no intelligence if there was no world. There is no world without intelligence. So, the idea of god has nothing to do with subjectivity.

ZenMode
03-23-2022, 12:11 PM
There would be no intelligence if there was no world. There is no world without intelligence. So, the idea of god has nothing to do with subjectivity.

What, other than a subject, can experience consciousness?

BidenPresident
03-23-2022, 12:21 PM
What, other than a subject, can experience consciousness?

That is the error, that consciousness is a function of subjectivity.

ZenMode
03-23-2022, 02:33 PM
That is the error, that consciousness is a function of subjectivity.

It seems clear that this could easily go on for 30 or most posts, only to have not gained any more clarity on what is this god that you believe in. I'll just move forward
under the assumption that this is not a god in the typical religious sense. There's no more reason to believe in your god than the typical gods of existing world religions, but it's atypical all the same.

BidenPresident
03-23-2022, 02:36 PM
It seems clear that this could easily go on for 30 or most posts, only to have not gained any more clarity on what is this god that you believe in. I'll just move forward
under the assumption that this is not a god in the typical religious sense. There's no more reason to believe in your god than the typical gods of existing world religions, but it's atypical all the same.

Belief is irrelevant. I'm not selling anything.

AProudLefty
03-23-2022, 02:39 PM
Millions of years of winds and tides have managed to create this beautiful sand castle.
8216

The graven error has been committed. The Junkyard fallacy has been employed.

ZenMode
03-23-2022, 02:41 PM
Belief is irrelevant. I'm not selling anything.

We agree. Belief doesn't impact reality for the existence of your god or any of the thousands of gods that man has ever believed in. The same is true for Big Foot, the Loch Ness Monster, ghosts, fairies, gnomes, leprechauns, santa clause, the easter bunny, etc.

BidenPresident
03-23-2022, 02:43 PM
We agree. Belief doesn't impact reality for the existence of your god or any of the thousands of gods that man has ever believed in. The same is true for Big Foot, the Loch Ness Monster, ghosts, fairies, gnomes, leprechauns, santa clause, the easter bunny, etc.

Never said anything about "my god." Clearly you have trouble understanding my posts.

ZenMode
03-23-2022, 02:48 PM
Never said anything about "my god." Clearly you have trouble understanding my posts.

How should I word it? The god you believe exists?

BidenPresident
03-23-2022, 02:48 PM
How should I word it? The god you believe exists?

You're lost.

ZenMode
03-23-2022, 02:52 PM
You're lost.

Correct. You spent 2 pages explaining a "god" that you apparently don't believe exists... in whatever form is can exist.

BidenPresident
03-23-2022, 02:54 PM
Correct. You spent 2 pages explaining a "god" that you apparently don't believe exists... in whatever form is can exist.

I said the closest thing to God that I conceive is that there is intelligence in the universe. Nothing to believe in.

ZenMode
03-23-2022, 02:57 PM
I said the closest thing to God that I conceive is that there is intelligence in the universe. Nothing to believe in.

Intelligence is, as you noted in your post, a 'thing'. You mentioned that this thing could be consciousness. You may not be able to explain it, but this 'thing' exists in some form and, as such, any one of us can believe in its existence.

ZenMode
03-23-2022, 02:59 PM
You're trying to say that this intelligence/consciousness IS something, but that something can't be believed to exist.

BidenPresident
03-23-2022, 02:59 PM
Intelligence is, as you noted in your post, a 'thing'. You mentioned that this thing could be consciousness. You may not be able to explain it, but this 'thing' exists in some form and, as such, any one of us can believe in its existence.

Absolutely wrong. Does earth have an orbit around the sun? That's intelligence. Are we communicating, that's intelligence.

BidenPresident
03-23-2022, 03:00 PM
You're trying to say that this intelligence/consciousness IS something, but that something can't be believed to exist.

Does the world exist and have a form? That is intelligence.

ZenMode
03-23-2022, 03:02 PM
Absolutely wrong. Does earth have an orbit around the sun? That's intelligence. Are we communicating, that's intelligence.

The orbit of a planet is something I can believe exists. It may not be tangible, but an orbit isn't nothing, right?

BidenPresident
03-23-2022, 03:04 PM
The orbit of a planet is something I can believe exists. It may not be tangible, but an orbit isn't nothing, right?

It's an orbit. Nothing to do with believing.

ZenMode
03-23-2022, 03:14 PM
It's an orbit. Nothing to do with believing.

Do you believe that gravity exists?

BidenPresident
03-23-2022, 03:15 PM
Do you believe that gravity exists?

I see stuff fall to the ground. What's to believe?

ZenMode
03-23-2022, 03:19 PM
I see stuff fall to the ground. What's to believe?

What's to believe is that there is a cause and that cause is likely the gravitational pull created by the earth. Do you believe that gravity exists.

BidenPresident
03-23-2022, 03:21 PM
What's to believe is that there is a cause and that cause is likely the gravitational pull created by the earth. Do you believe that gravity exists.

Yes, there are forces. What's to believe? Either there are or are not.

ZenMode
03-23-2022, 03:31 PM
Yes, there are forces. What's to believe? Either there are or are not.

It seems like we should agree here, but the concept of believing is standing in the way, for some reason.

BidenPresident
03-23-2022, 03:32 PM
It seems like we should agree here, but the concept of believing is standing in the way, for some reason.

Yes. I have no idea what belief has to do with gravity or the earth's orbit.

Cypress
03-23-2022, 04:03 PM
Millions of years of winds and tides have managed to create this beautiful sand castle.
8216
The premise that intricate complexity arising from chaotic physical and chemical systems must somehow imply an intelligent design clock maker has been rejected by the courts and by legitimate science.

We still don't know how the intricately choreographed functions of the cell arose out of a soup of inert chemicals -- but lack of information has never been legitimately used to hypothesize a supernatural cause.

I am not one to categorically rule out that there is knowledge beyond our grasp, and I don't think we can can assume that mechanistic cause-and-effect explanations can fully account for the nature of ultimate reality.

But the creation science dupes still need to up their game, because intelligent design as a hypothesis just doesn't cut the mustard.

ZenMode
03-23-2022, 04:28 PM
Yes. I have no idea what belief has to do with gravity or the earth's orbit.

There are few things that we know with 100% certainty. When I learned about the theory of gravity in school, I, whether I realize it or not, assign a level of certainty on how much I believe what I am told. When I take in information about climate change, I have a level of certainty with which I believe that. As I'm typing this in my phone, I may have a level of certainty regarding how much I believe there actually is a phone or is an "I" that is typing.

The same is true for the god that you're describing and the confidence with which you believe it exists.

BidenPresident
03-23-2022, 05:14 PM
There are few things that we know with 100% certainty. When I learned about the theory of gravity in school, I, whether I realize it or not, assign a level of certainty on how much I believe what I am told. When I take in information about climate change, I have a level of certainty with which I believe that. As I'm typing this in my phone, I may have a level of certainty regarding how much I believe there actually is a phone or is an "I" that is typing.

The same is true for the god that you're describing and the confidence with which you believe it exists.

You misstate what I have said. I see intelligence in the universe. Nothing to do with believing. You keep inferring that I mean God exists as intelligence, which is not my position.

ZenMode
03-23-2022, 05:24 PM
You misstate what I have said. I see intelligence in the universe. Nothing to do with believing. You keep inferring that I mean God exists as intelligence, which is not my position.

What's the difference between seeing intelligence in the universe and believing there is intelligence in the universe?

Melchizedek = Michael
03-23-2022, 05:27 PM
Indeed. One God and 10,000 different religions.

This is the best post you ever made

Melchizedek = Michael
03-23-2022, 05:27 PM
Which one god? One of the thousands that man has believed in throughout history, your god? A god that man has no awareness of?

I AM

Melchizedek = Michael
03-23-2022, 05:29 PM
I said the closest thing to God that I conceive is that there is intelligence in the universe. Nothing to believe in.

All evidence to the contrary here!

BidenPresident
03-23-2022, 05:42 PM
What's the difference between seeing intelligence in the universe and believing there is intelligence in the universe?

Experience. I see my laptop. I don't have to believe to see it.

BidenPresident
03-23-2022, 05:43 PM
All evidence to the contrary here!

no

Melchizedek = Michael
03-23-2022, 05:47 PM
no

You mean no shit

BidenPresident
03-23-2022, 05:47 PM
You mean no shit

I am not sure I understood your original comment.

evince
03-23-2022, 05:53 PM
Even if you believe that a god made everything, you have no idea which god. Believers in other religions have their gods, their books, their creation stories and are as confident as you that their god/religion in the 'real' one.

Nearly all religions say they are the ONE true religion


That means if only one religion is correct


99.99 are all wrong

ZenMode
03-24-2022, 05:47 AM
Experience. I see my laptop. I don't have to believe to see it.

But you do believe that it exists or doesn't exist, right? With things you can't see, like gravity, you believe it exists or you don't believe it it exists and you have some level of confidence in that belief.

BidenPresident
03-25-2022, 02:50 PM
But you do believe that it exists or doesn't exist, right? With things you can't see, like gravity, you believe it exists or you don't believe it it exists and you have some level of confidence in that belief.

Nothing to do with belief.

NiftyNiblick
03-25-2022, 03:01 PM
God exists because the Bible says so.
The Bible has to be right because it's the word of God.

Grugore has the effrontery to talk about logic.