Trump Putin summit

I wasn't even aware of his attire and now I have to give a "spin" for it -.- In the actual meeting itself, I believe he was wearing something else, a nice suit. I have no idea why he was wearing that sweater. I wouldn't be surprised if it was some worn sweater he liked and he wasn't even thinking of its political implications and is now regretting he wasn't more careful. But if you to make some big deal about it, I certainly can't stop you. What I -will- say is that fashion choices aside, I have heard that he is quite a good diplomat.
Naw, nothing more need be said than your default is to ignore what you see or being told was worn and instead to insert your 'best possible scenario' for why he wore it.

Honestly, this reminds me of nitpicking what Michelle Obama was wearing. They're still talking about something she wore back in 2009:

If fashion faux pas is your cup of tea, then go for it. I barely notice what people are wearing, much less when it's supposed to be for a domestic audience of Russians.
 
Honestly, this reminds me of nitpicking what Michelle Obama was wearing. They're still talking about something she wore back in 2009:

If fashion faux pas is your cup of tea, then go for it. I barely notice what people are wearing, much less when it's supposed to be for a domestic audience of Russians.
So you swing from a 'he was not doing it' type position to one of 'whatabout Michelle Obama', to say both sides do it.

Nice.
 
What evidence? You make an unsubstantiated assertion and think that's evidence?

Meanwhile, I quote -paragraphs- of evidence for my own assertions, complete with linked articles (which frequently have links themselves) and you snip all of that right off from my post. Case in point, the post you were just responding to. For the audience, feel free to take a look at post #385 to see the paragraphs I quoted from an article by Kit Knightly, which I get into right after my "i've seen no evidence for this" sentence. In that post, I provide copious amounts of evidence that Yanukovych, far from QP's unsubstantiated assertion, was actually trying to reach an agreement with both the European Union -and- Russia. For some reason, the European Union wasn't interested. I even asked QP why he thought that was after the quoting, but I imagine he stopped reading long before that point.
As i said the question is not about the evidence but rather of what you will accept as others, who are not you see lots of evidence.

Personally, I think it doesn't really make sense to be talking about evidence for your case being rejected if you haven't actually provided any to begin with.
 
Personally, I think it doesn't really make sense to be talking about evidence for your case being rejected if you haven't actually provided any to begin with.
None that you will "accept".

You keep forgetting to add that word time and again even after i show you a lot.

Any i do not really know you from this forum but i see no one really engages with you and i can now see why as all your posts are the equivalent of 'nuh uh', and nothing more. You really are not saying anything other than to keep repeating that you not "accept" anything that does not agree with your position so i will, as others do, leave you to argue with yourself.
 
My well curated grapevine is coming to the conclusion that the Russians were able to substantially educate Trump in Alaska, and that getting around the Imperial Empire control of what he is told was the main reason for the meeting.....even though the Russians dont generally believe in meetings unless there are agreements to finish, that have been completed by staff.
 
The problem with using Witkoff starts with the fact that he is uneducated on the matters being discussed, he likely does not have the ability to know what is important......it is now pretty clear that using him as a conduit to Trump failed.
 
Brian Berletic

@BrianJBerletic

Just 4 hours ago - Fox News posts an interview with US Sec. of State Marco Rubio who repeats the exact same justification for Ukraine to defacto join NATO or a NATO-like alliance that has been used for DECADES and which led to this whole conflict in the first place... ...the notion any nation can join a "security alliance" (NATO or defacto NATOized) and Russia doesn't get a say in it. What is the purpose of these alliances? Protection? From who? Or to create battering rams the US openly uses against nations it targets for encroachment and eventually regime change?This is Minks 3.0 - and the only way it isn't in the minds of those putting it together is the hope that Russia won't have the opportunity or means of launching another SMO once the pieces fall into place. Rubio is a necon. Trump is a necon. This is continuity of agenda - not the first time in over a century the US genuinely seeks change/peace - not even the first time during a Trump presidency any such thing is taking place.

------------------------------------------------------

Brian Berletic is not having it.
 
Yes — Viktor Yanukovych (President of Ukraine, 2010–2014) was widely described in Western and Ukrainian political discourse as being a “Putin puppet” or Kremlin-aligned leader. He was closely tied to Moscow, but he also tried at times to balance between Russia and the West.

Well, if the western mainstream propaganda machine says it, it -must- be true, eh? But I see that you have enlisted some AI to aid you in your quest for evidence for your position. Let's see how that goes...

AI Summary:

Evidence that Yanukovych was seen as pro-Putin / Kremlin’s man


  1. Political Backing from Russia
    • In the 2004 Ukrainian presidential election (the one that triggered the Orange Revolution), Russia and Putin strongly supported Yanukovych. Putin personally congratulated him before votes were even fully counted.
    • After the protests forced a revote that Yanukovych lost, Putin and Russian media openly criticized the process as Western interference.

I see you didn't provide any sources. If you're using ChatGPT, you can just ask for sources and it'll give them to you. Anyway, I fully admit I haven't studied up on the 2004 election, so I'll give this one a pass simply because I don't have better at the moment. My focus is late 2013 and after.

Party of Regions and Kremlin Ties
  • Yanukovych’s Party of Regions was based in the Russophone east and south of Ukraine, with financial ties to oligarchs who had strong economic links to Russia.
  • Leaked diplomatic cables (published by WikiLeaks and reported in 2010) suggested U.S. diplomats believed the Party of Regions had extensive ties to Russian political consultants and interests.

I see your AI makes no mention of -western- influence in Ukraine. You know, things like this:
**

2008

US Secretary of State Condoleeza Rice and Ukrainian Foreign Minister Volodymyr Ohryzko sign the US-Ukraine Charter on Strategic Partnership,the charter “emphasizes the continued commitment of the United States to support enhanced engagement between NATO and Ukraine”.
**
Source:


Policies in Office (2010–2014)
  • Signed deals deepening Ukraine’s energy dependency on Russia, particularly the 2010 Kharkiv Pact extending Russia’s Black Sea Fleet presence in Crimea until 2042 in exchange for discounted gas.
So Ukraine decides to let Russia's Black Sea Fleet stay in Crimea in exchange for discounted gas. What's the issue? You think the U.S. doesn't have access to ports all over the world for its own navy?

Policies in Office (2010–2014)
  • ...
  • His government prosecuted pro-Western figures (like Yulia Tymoshenko) while improving ties with Moscow.

Admittedly, I know little of Yulia. I read a fair amount of her entry on Wikipedia just now:

Wikipedia being my only source on her at the moment, it does look like she was wrongly accused.

In late 2013, [Yanukovych] abruptly rejected an EU Association Agreement under heavy Russian pressure (and reported promises of financial aid from Putin), sparking the Euromaidan protests.

I've covered this already, but I suspect you never read what I quoted, so once more:
**
SEPTEMBER
The Ukrainian cabinet unanimously approves the draft of the long-awaited Ukraine-EU Association Agreement. Yanokuych is expected to officially sign the agreement at the EU’s “Eastern Partnership Summit” in Vilnius on November 28th and 29th.

Russia – Ukraine’s major creditor and biggest trade partner – warns that this treaty would “cause chaos”, break the terms of an existing treaty between Ukraine and Russia, and lead to Ukraine’s economy collapsing. As a counteroffer, they suggest Ukraine sign a new deal with the Eurasian Economic Union.

NOVEMBER
The Ukrainian government issues a decree suspending preparations for the association agreement (AA). Deputy Prime Minister Yuriy Boyko warns the current terms of the agreement would “seriously damage the economy”.

“Pro European” demonstrations begin in Maidan square within days of the decree being issued. A poll run by the Kyiv Post finds an even split on joining the EU vs the Eurasian customs union: 39% for, 37% against.

Yanukovych attends the Eastern Partnership Summit on the 28th, but does not sign the Association Agreement, instead suggesting a new tri-lateral agreement between Ukraine, Russia and the EU. Russia is open to negotiating such a deal, but EU rejects this offer completely.

Despite not signing the AA, Yanukovych tells the press that Ukraine still intends to work for closer ties with the EU: “an alternative for reforms in Ukraine and an alternative for European integration do not exist…We are walking along this path and are not changing direction”.

Prime Minister Mykola Azarov echoed this: “I affirm with full authority that the negotiating process over the Association Agreement is continuing, and the work on moving our country closer to European standards is not stopping for a single day”.

Nevertheless, this is ubiquitously covered in the Western media as Yanukovych “refusing to sign the association agreement in favour of closer ties with Russia”.
**

Source:

Personal Relations with Putin
  • Putin invested significant political capital in Yanukovych, meeting him often and treating him as a reliable partner.
  • Russia offered a $15 billion bailout package to Yanukovych’s government in December 2013 to keep Ukraine in its orbit.

The U.S. does the same type of thing all the time. They've even got a method for doing it:

Quoting a relevant line from the above article:
**
For more than fifty years, foreign aid has been a core form of US engagement in the developing world. To advance its interests, the United States has provided loans, technical assistance, and direct budget support to developing nations to promote economic growth and more representative forms of governance.
**
 
Putin is consistently speaking about Ukraine as a nation that should not exist
Another unsubstantiated assertion. You sure make a lot of those.
Ai Summary

---------------

Absolutely — Vladimir Putin has indeed made statements denying the legitimacy of Ukraine as an independent nation, implying it shouldn't exist as such. Here’s what he’s said, directly drawn from verifiable sources:

Direct Quotes from Putin (and close proxies)​

1. Ukraine “not even a state” (2008)​

At the April 2008 NATO Summit, Putin reportedly told U.S. President George W. Bush

"Reportedly", eh? Well then, it -must- be true -.-
 

2. “Created entirely by Bolshevik Russia” (February 2022)​

In a televised speech to the Russian nation, Putin declared

I now see your source, it was a quote, which doesn't come through when I reply. So, from your source, the actual quote:
**
“I will start with the fact that modern Ukraine was entirely created by Russia or, to be more precise, by Bolshevik, Communist Russia.”
**
Source:

Do you believe that what Putin says here is false?
 

3. An “anti-Russia project” / “fiction” of statehood

In his 2021 essay, "On the Historical Unity of Russians and Ukrainians", Putin argued:
  • Russians and Ukrainians are “one people.”
  • The formation of a Ukrainian state was a hostile “anti-Russia project,” created artificially and often equated to “weapons of mass destruction.”
    WikipediaCNN
In subsequent remarks, he framed Ukrainian sovereignty as an ideological threat to Russian identity and security.
WikipediaAtlantic Council

I don't trust what your AI says, in light of the fact that you'd directed it to find information that supported your view that Putin doesn't believe that Ukraine should exist. So I went to your AI's sources. Here's what I found in one of your sources:
**
In the essay, Putin argues that Russians and Ukrainians, along with Belarusians, are one people, belonging to what has historically been known as the triune Russian nation. To support the claim, he describes in length his views on the history of Russia and Ukraine, concluding that Russians and Ukrainians share a common heritage and destiny.
**

Source:

That certainly sounds reasonable. Now as to the claim of "mass destruction", there's some important nuance there. Quoting from Wikipedia's sources, which is an article from The Guardian:
**
In June, Putin published an article in which he doubled down on a public claim that “Russians and Ukrainians were one people”, saying the formation of an ethnically Ukrainian state hostile to Moscow was “comparable in its consequences to the use of weapons of mass destruction against us”.
**
Source:

In other words, the West weaponized Ukraine against Russia, which necessitated Russia's military operation in Ukraine.
 

4. Territorial claims and historical revisionism (2023)​

In November 2023, Putin described Ukraine’s territory as Russian lands transferred during Soviet state formation:
Ukraine historically comprised only a few oblasts (Kyiv region, Zhytomyr, Chernihiv), while the southern territories were Russian and shouldn’t have been ceded.​

Well, there's certainly plenty of evidence that Crimea was Russian for most of the past few centuries. From what I've read, it looks like Crimea was transferred to Ukraine primarily as a political maneuver- Crimeans certainly never voted to leave Russia, but they certainly voted to -return- to Russia in 2014:
 
Let's recap here. Guno quotes some Daily Beast story, specifically this one:

In my response to Guno's post, I stated that I didn't see anyone fawning on anyone, just everyone being respectful. You then imply that "such footage" is "rare to almost non existent" with allied leaders. At which point, I ask what your source is. I should have perhaps left it at that, but instead I asked you if you'd done a study of all the footage Trump has had with allied leaders and you then say that you don't need "all". Forget about all, you didn't provide -any- evidence for your claim, but the worst of it is, your claim was rather vague to begin with. By this I mean that "such footage" is not exactly very specific. So, what do you mean by "such footage"? Do you believe the Daily Beast's assertion that Trump is "fawning over Putin"?
You seem to think peoples opinions have to satisfy you

No, I just want to understand them. I now see that you did indeed claim that Trump has fawned "all over" Putin. Is it because the mainstream media told you that was happening?

The treatment of allied world leaders who are not despots by Trump is well discussed thing. I can quote Trump saying flattering things about Xi, LiL Kim, Orban and Bolsonaro and Putin, all considered despots on the world stage and i am unable to find any such thing of allies that would approximate that.

Trump flatters a -lot- of world leaders. He was just doing it with the European leaders who came to see him:

Trump Flatters European Leaders at Start of Multilateral Meeting | Wall Street Journal

 
Honestly, this reminds me of nitpicking what Michelle Obama was wearing. They're still talking about something she wore back in 2009:

If fashion faux pas is your cup of tea, then go for it. I barely notice what people are wearing, much less when it's supposed to be for a domestic audience of Russians.
So you swing from a 'he was not doing it' type position to one of 'whatabout Michelle Obama', to say both sides do it.

I never said Lavrov didn't wear the sweater in question. As to Michelle Obama, I just brought her up to point out that this tactic of shaming people for wearing some faux pas piece of clothing is something that's been done to both the left and the right. Do Lavrov and Michelle have regrets of wearing this or that piece of clothing? Perhaps. Was it really that big a deal? I don't think so. But hey, if you want to keep on going about Lavrov's sweater, or Michelle's blouse for that matter, that's up to you.
 
Personally, I think it doesn't really make sense to be talking about evidence for your case being rejected if you haven't actually provided any to begin with.
None that you will "accept".

I think we can agree that first a party has to -present- evidence before the other can accept or reject it. Now, to your credit, you have -now- presented some evidence, and I've given my remarks on it. Make of them as you will.
 
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