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Thread: Detroit High School Protest: Students Suspended After Demanding 'An Education'

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    Here's an article from Sunday that was about an Oakland plan to make teachers compete for their jobs. Not surprisingly the teachers union was against this.

    There were lots of comments written by readers after the article and among those that stood out to me were even though this is happening in Oakland it is part of the plan by the GOP and Libertarians to fundamentally take apart our public education system and move toward a privatized one, there is no evidence that making teachers compete for their job has worked before, there is no evidence that bad teachers are the problem in education so this essentially anti-government, anti-teacher, anti-union rhetoric.


    http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/articl...MN1F1NSJ0C.DTL

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    Quote Originally Posted by Superfreak View Post
    I am going by what the site posted, do you have evidence to the contrary?
    Here is another site, but not as current as I would like...

    http://nces.ed.gov/fastfacts/display.asp?id=66
    Quote from Cypress:
    "Scientists don't use "averages". Maybe armchair supertools on message boards ascribe some meaning to "averages" between two random data points. And maybe clueless amatuers "draw a straight line" through two random end data points to define a "trend". Experts don't.

    They use mean annual and five year means in trend analysis. Don't tell me I have to explain the difference to you. "

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    Quote Originally Posted by Superfreak View Post
    Here is another site, but not as current as I would like...

    http://nces.ed.gov/fastfacts/display.asp?id=66

    That site doesn't have comparative data. I'm going off of memory of the OECD statistics on public expenditures.

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    apparently, this kid got a good enough education to see what's important.....
    Isaiah 6:5
    “Woe to me!” I cried. “I am ruined! For I am a man of unclean lips, and I live among a people of unclean lips, and my eyes have seen the King, the Lord Almighty.”

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    Quote Originally Posted by General Buck Turgidson View Post
    That site doesn't have comparative data. I'm going off of memory of the OECD statistics on public expenditures.
    Oh well in that case, obviously we should go by your memory. do you have anything that suggests the first site is not comparing apples to apples?
    Quote from Cypress:
    "Scientists don't use "averages". Maybe armchair supertools on message boards ascribe some meaning to "averages" between two random data points. And maybe clueless amatuers "draw a straight line" through two random end data points to define a "trend". Experts don't.

    They use mean annual and five year means in trend analysis. Don't tell me I have to explain the difference to you. "

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    In Detroit, the union is the largest problem (other than the actual struture of public education). This isn't o say I'm anti union, or even against teachers unions, only that the situation in Detroit is an example of how unions do not represent your (the consumers) interest, they serve their (the unions) interest.
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    I am not likely to be a participant in any organized protest. Back in the 90's there was an organized protest at OKC by teachers across the state who were wanting a law passed (and eventually it was) that gave teachers raises, reduced class size and what not. I wasn't there as it just isn't my thing to be involved in such. I'm more of a letter writer and a one on one participant in the process. That being said, if what I read in the article is true then good for these kids. I truly hope that their motives were sincere and they weren't just wanting to be rebellious to be rebellious. Imagine, a teacher gone for 86 (or whatever it was) out of the 175 school days....and then expecting that the kids have been taught to their fullest potential. No way that's gonna happen.

    I also read cawacko's article. The superintendent seems desperate to try something that will work. I would be all for that plan. I mean, if I can't do the job then bring someone in who can. Which leads me again to testing/accountability. I am all for holding teachers accountable for test scores as long as there is some accountability on the part of the student as well. I am very tempted this testing season (which is getting ready to be in full swing next week for us) to video the students while they are testing, interview the ones afterward who obviously do not try and make a presentation to take to our legislators. Take it to our legislators, because they are the ones who are going to tie the student's performance on tests to our (teacher's) evaluations and possibility of future employment. I don't mind it for me as there aready is some accountability on the student's part (soon to be taken away I hear) so my students put forth good effort on these state tests, but for the upper-elementary and junior high teacher to be held accountable for the student's performance when the test the student is taking means diddly-squat to them....that won't work.

    People who are not in education need to be informed by those who are. Informed, not preached to nor talked down to, but informed. I contend that most people, even state legislators, when informed of what is really happening, will make the best decision possible. Naive? Maybe but that is the way I feel.

    As to teaching, I have always said to tell me what you want 'em to know and by when you want 'em to know it and I, like Number One, will "make it so."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Superfreak View Post
    Oh well in that case, obviously we should go by your memory. do you have anything that suggests the first site is not comparing apples to apples?
    I didn't say that it wasn't comparing apples to apples. I took the point under discussion to be about public spending on education. The link that you posted likely includes public and private expenditures. I don't really care enough about it to actually research it but wanted to point that out. If you're interested in comparative education spending, here's a shitload of data from the OECD:

    http://www.oecd.org/document/2/0,374...1,00.html#Data

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    Quote Originally Posted by leaningright View Post
    I am not likely to be a participant in any organized protest. Back in the 90's there was an organized protest at OKC by teachers across the state who were wanting a law passed (and eventually it was) that gave teachers raises, reduced class size and what not. I wasn't there as it just isn't my thing to be involved in such. I'm more of a letter writer and a one on one participant in the process. That being said, if what I read in the article is true then good for these kids. I truly hope that their motives were sincere and they weren't just wanting to be rebellious to be rebellious. Imagine, a teacher gone for 86 (or whatever it was) out of the 175 school days....and then expecting that the kids have been taught to their fullest potential. No way that's gonna happen.

    I also read cawacko's article. The superintendent seems desperate to try something that will work. I would be all for that plan. I mean, if I can't do the job then bring someone in who can. Which leads me again to testing/accountability. I am all for holding teachers accountable for test scores as long as there is some accountability on the part of the student as well. I am very tempted this testing season (which is getting ready to be in full swing next week for us) to video the students while they are testing, interview the ones afterward who obviously do not try and make a presentation to take to our legislators. Take it to our legislators, because they are the ones who are going to tie the student's performance on tests to our (teacher's) evaluations and possibility of future employment. I don't mind it for me as there aready is some accountability on the student's part (soon to be taken away I hear) so my students put forth good effort on these state tests but f,or the upper-elementary and junior high teacher to be held accountable for the student's performance when the test the student is taking means diddly-squat to them....that won't work.

    People who are not in education need to be informed by those who are. Informed, not preached to nor talked down to, but informed. I contend that most people, even state legislators, when informed of what is really happening, will make the best decision possible. Naive? Maybe but that is the way I feel.

    As to teaching, I have always said to tell me what you want 'em to know and by when you want 'em to know it and I, like Number One, will "make it so."
    The bolded above is a very good point. One I had not personally taken into account.
    Quote from Cypress:
    "Scientists don't use "averages". Maybe armchair supertools on message boards ascribe some meaning to "averages" between two random data points. And maybe clueless amatuers "draw a straight line" through two random end data points to define a "trend". Experts don't.

    They use mean annual and five year means in trend analysis. Don't tell me I have to explain the difference to you. "

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    Quote Originally Posted by General Buck Turgidson View Post
    I didn't say that it wasn't comparing apples to apples. I took the point under discussion to be about public spending on education. The link that you posted likely includes public and private expenditures. I don't really care enough about it to actually research it but wanted to point that out. If you're interested in comparative education spending, here's a shitload of data from the OECD:

    http://www.oecd.org/document/2/0,374...1,00.html#Data
    The link 'likely' compares them because you say so. Um... ok.
    Quote from Cypress:
    "Scientists don't use "averages". Maybe armchair supertools on message boards ascribe some meaning to "averages" between two random data points. And maybe clueless amatuers "draw a straight line" through two random end data points to define a "trend". Experts don't.

    They use mean annual and five year means in trend analysis. Don't tell me I have to explain the difference to you. "

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    Quote Originally Posted by Superfreak View Post
    The link 'likely' compares them because you say so. Um... ok.

    No. Likely because I say so and I say so because I am familiar with the data that it cites as a source (OECD, though quite dated data) and with where the US ranks on a comparative basis for public spending on education.

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    Quote Originally Posted by General Buck Turgidson View Post
    No. Likely because I say so and I say so because I am familiar with the data that it cites as a source (OECD, though quite dated data) and with where the US ranks on a comparative basis for public spending on education.
    ok... because you say so because you remembered something that might be related to this topic but you really aren't sure... understood.
    Quote from Cypress:
    "Scientists don't use "averages". Maybe armchair supertools on message boards ascribe some meaning to "averages" between two random data points. And maybe clueless amatuers "draw a straight line" through two random end data points to define a "trend". Experts don't.

    They use mean annual and five year means in trend analysis. Don't tell me I have to explain the difference to you. "

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    Quote Originally Posted by Superfreak View Post
    ok... because you say so because you remembered something that might be related to this topic but you really aren't sure... understood.

    You're the ignorant one here, hotshot. Not me. Enjoy it!

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    Quote Originally Posted by General Buck Turgidson View Post
    You're the ignorant one here, hotshot. Not me. Enjoy it!
    LMAO... um, ok... so again... please link us up to something other than your memory of what you think it might be. and no... linking to the OECD and saying go look is not acceptable.
    Quote from Cypress:
    "Scientists don't use "averages". Maybe armchair supertools on message boards ascribe some meaning to "averages" between two random data points. And maybe clueless amatuers "draw a straight line" through two random end data points to define a "trend". Experts don't.

    They use mean annual and five year means in trend analysis. Don't tell me I have to explain the difference to you. "

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    Quote Originally Posted by Superfreak View Post
    LMAO... um, ok... so again... please link us up to something other than your memory of what you think it might be. and no... linking to the OECD and saying go look is not acceptable.

    No thanks. I'm comfortable where I am. Anyone who wants to look up comparative stats on education spending knows where to find it. Here it is again for those that are interested:

    http://www.oecd.org/document/2/0,374...1,00.html#Data


    If anyone wants comparative total spending on primary education for 1998 they can go to your link.

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