A Note About Our Freedom

[SmarterthanYou]

One day the two woman from the democracy decide to go on vacation. One woman buys her ticket and gets on a plane to Bermuda. The other woman has limited resources and when she gets to the airport is told she cannot board the plane without a ticket. Finally after much dispute she is arrested and thrown into a state jail.

One day the two woman in the totalitarian state decide to travel abroad. One works in government and gains permission to go to Bermuda. The other woman checks with her local commissar and is told she cannot travel to Bermuda. Travel to Bermuda is not allowed. She disputes the decision and is soon thrown into a state jail. Two woman exercised their freedom two couldn't, yet each held the same value.

that's almost the stupidest analogy i've ever seen on this board.

[midcan5]

that's almost the stupidest analogy i've ever seen on this board.

Darn, I was aiming for the superlative. But you have to answer the question, if one is unable to live a life in which they can do things, participate fully in their society, are they free? Or is freedom just an interesting concept requiring context?


"Core morality tells us that people have a right to what they earn by their own efforts freely exercised. It is this part of core morality that Ayn Rand objectivists, libertarians, and other right wingers tap into when they insist that taxation is slavery... The trouble with such arguments is that nothing is earned, nothing is deserved. Even if there really were moral rights to the fruit of our freely exercised abilities and talents, these talents and abilities are never freely acquired or exercised. Just as your innate and acquired intelligence and abilities are unearned, so also are your ambitions, along with the discipline, the willingness to train, and other traits that have to be combined with your talents and abilities to produce anything worthwhile at all.... We don't earn our inborn (excuse the expression "God given") talents and abilities. We had nothing to do with whether these traits were conferred all of us are not. Similarly, we didn't earn the acquired character traits needed to convert these talents into achievements. They, too, were the result of deterministic processes (genetic and cultural) that were set in motion long before we were born. That is what excludes the possibility that we earned or deserve them. We were just lucky to have the combination of hardwired abilities and learned ambitions that resulted in the world beating a path to our door....No one ever earned or deserved the traits that resulted in the inequalities we enjoy -greater income and wealth, better health and longer life, admiration and social distinction, comfort, and leisure. Therefore, no one, including us, has a right to those inequality. Core morality may permit unearned inequalities, but it is certainly not going to require them without some further moral reason to do so." Alex Rosenberg

[Socrtease]

Darn, I was aiming for the superlative. But you have to answer the question, if one is unable to live a life in which they can do things, participate fully in their society, are they free? Or is freedom just an interesting concept requiring context?


"Core morality tells us that people have a right to what they earn by their own efforts freely exercised. It is this part of core morality that Ayn Rand objectivists, libertarians, and other right wingers tap into when they insist that taxation is slavery... The trouble with such arguments is that nothing is earned, nothing is deserved. Even if there really were moral rights to the fruit of our freely exercised abilities and talents, these talents and abilities are never freely acquired or exercised. Just as your innate and acquired intelligence and abilities are unearned, so also are your ambitions, along with the discipline, the willingness to train, and other traits that have to be combined with your talents and abilities to produce anything worthwhile at all.... We don't earn our inborn (excuse the expression "God given") talents and abilities. We had nothing to do with whether these traits were conferred all of us are not. Similarly, we didn't earn the acquired character traits needed to convert these talents into achievements. They, too, were the result of deterministic processes (genetic and cultural) that were set in motion long before we were born. That is what excludes the possibility that we earned or deserve them. We were just lucky to have the combination of hardwired abilities and learned ambitions that resulted in the world beating a path to our door....No one ever earned or deserved the traits that resulted in the inequalities we enjoy -greater income and wealth, better health and longer life, admiration and social distinction, comfort, and leisure. Therefore, no one, including us, has a right to those inequality. Core morality may permit unearned inequalities, but it is certainly not going to require them without some further moral reason to do so." Alex Rosenberg

Total and complete rubbish by Rosenberg. Yes, we do not earn some of our hardwired abilities. Everyone can throw a ball, not everyone can do so in a way that allows them to pitch or play quarterback in professional sports. However, there are some people out there with those innate talents who NEVER exert themselves enough to become great. I remember seeing a 20/20 or Dateline about a guy with a 150+ IQ. Dropped out of highschool and spent his life, into his forties as a bouncer in a bar. Lived in an apartment with 2 books, which he had never read, and he did nothing with his life. All that hardwired ability and he never so much as lifted a book to make himself better. His lack of resources was his own damn fault. He could have been just about anything he wanted but he didn't want to exert himself to get there.

[Rune]

What freedoms are unique to America?

Freedom from the rule of the U.K.?

[Yurt]

Freedom from the rule of the U.K.?

that is not unique to america. india also shares that. sheeesh. try the 1st amendment....

[Lowaicue]

Freedom from the rule of the U.K.?

Re-submit.

[Rune]

You credit me with the wisdom of ages, the influence of kings and the ability of genius. The culture of Great Britain is something of which I am proud, but no matter how I try I cannot influence it any more than the Americans who have 'expatrioted'(sic)and also live in Hong Kong and countries all around the world.
The culture of China is even older than that of Great Britain, but loyalty to that culture is held, almost entirely, in the people of China.
When you get a culture you may appreciate that. of course you will be long gone.

When was the last time you were in New England? We have culture here, granted we don't have the remains of the romans who gave you your culture laying about, but we do have many remnants of the vikings, who gave you your kings. Your brash, uncalled for critizism of our culture makes you appear uncultured. I am embarassed for you.

[midcan5]

Total and complete rubbish by Rosenberg. Yes, we do not earn some of our hardwired abilities. Everyone can throw a ball, not everyone can do so in a way that allows them to pitch or play quarterback in professional sports. However, there are some people out there with those innate talents who NEVER exert themselves enough to become great. I remember seeing a 20/20 or Dateline about a guy with a 150+ IQ. Dropped out of highschool and spent his life, into his forties as a bouncer in a bar. Lived in an apartment with 2 books, which he had never read, and he did nothing with his life. All that hardwired ability and he never so much as lifted a book to make himself better. His lack of resources was his own damn fault. He could have been just about anything he wanted but he didn't want to exert himself to get there.

Note, I made minor corrections to the quote as I used a voice reader and they are not always accurate.

I noticed you didn't read his complete comment as he covers your objections. I find it funny you are shooting one of your own as Rosenberg is very much a libertarian, and if I were to object to his analysis, I would look to influences that are outside the individual. But your example of the person with the high IQ is odd for a libertarian, is this person not free to do as he pleases? And what pleases him fits with Rosenberg's comment. You assume he could be somebody other than he is. Several in our family have IQs in the range you note and I can confirm each uses it differently, some not at all.

Now if I were to disagree with Rosenberg and you, I would look to some other influences that can change a person's life. A teacher, a coach, a peer, a book... even an experience of some sort. Can we then say that the person chose those influences? You see the circle that puts us in as again did they pick those influences or were they there already. No choice, we are back where we started.

PS did you ever read my comment on your Eisenhower quote? The only modern republican president I admire, but he was far from a libertarian but very much his own person.


Correction: "Core morality tells us that people have a right to what they earn by their own efforts freely exercised. It is this part of core morality that Ayn Rand objectivists, libertarians, and other right wingers tap into when they insist that taxation is slavery... The trouble with such arguments is that nothing is earned, nothing is deserved. Even if there really were moral rights to the fruit of our freely exercised abilities and talents, these talents and abilities are never freely acquired or exercised. Just as your innate and acquired intelligence and abilities are unearned, so also are your ambitions, along with the discipline, the willingness to train, and other traits that have to be combined with your talents and abilities to produce anything worthwhile at all.... We don't earn our inborn (excuse the expression "God given") talents and abilities. We had nothing to do with whether these traits were conferred on us or not. Similarly, we didn't earn the acquired character traits needed to convert these talents into achievements. They, too, were the result of deterministic processes (genetic and cultural) that were set in motion long before we were born. That is what excludes the possibility that we earned or deserve them. We were just lucky to have the combination of hardwired abilities and learned ambitions that resulted in the world beating a path to our door....No one ever earned or deserved the traits that resulted in the inequalities we enjoy - greater income and wealth, better health and longer life, admiration and social distinction, comfort, and leisure. Therefore, no one, including us, has a moral right to those inequalities. Core morality may permit unearned inequalities, but it is certainly not going to require them without some further moral reason to do so." Alex Rosenberg

[Guns Guns Guns]

Went to see the new Batman movie this weekend.

Were you scared to go unarmed?

[Lowaicue]

When was the last time you were in New England? We have culture here, granted we don't have the remains of the romans who gave you your culture laying about, but we do have many remnants of the vikings, who gave you your kings. Your brash, uncalled for critizism of our culture makes you appear uncultured. I am embarassed for you.

LOL. Come on, come on, get up to speed on cross pond banter.

[Threedee]

You credit me with the wisdom of ages, the influence of kings and the ability of genius. The culture of Great Britain is something of which I am proud, but no matter how I try I cannot influence it any more than the Americans who have 'expatrioted'(sic)and also live in Hong Kong and countries all around the world.
The culture of China is even older than that of Great Britain, but loyalty to that culture is held, almost entirely, in the people of China.
When you get a culture you may appreciate that. of course you will be long gone.

The wisdom of ages has left you without an Empire. The kings were narcissistic brutes, but congradulations on deriving purpose from them. Most societies these days prove themselves capable of tapping into genius - even North Korea manages it.

[Lowaicue]

The wisdom of ages has left you without an Empire. The kings were narcissicistic brutes, but congradulations on deriving purpose from them. Most societies these days prove themselves capable of tapping into genius - even North Korea manages it.

There you go again. I said 'me' (First person singular) you replied with 'you' (second person plural). Confused? You will be when you have watched the next episode of SOAP.

[Lowaicue]

I'll try again. What freedoms are unique to America? Not taunting, not trolling, just asking.

Who has the guts to list the freedoms that are UNIQUE to America?

[Threedee]

There you go again. I said 'me' (First person singular) you replied with 'you' (second person plural). Confused? You will be when you have watched the next episode of SOAP.

You are the individual claiming that America has no culture. Short of that, I feel at liberty of claiming just about anything I choose to about you. I say "you" because you are not "me" (thankfully). If you don't feel any sort of kinship toward either Great Britain or China, then I suppose that is your perogative, but I tend to refer to myself and my allegiances interchangably (USA, WA State, sports teams, clubs, the Seattle Metro area, my military branch/component/unit, etc.).

[Lowaicue]

You are the individual claiming that America has no culture. Short of that, I feel at liberty of claiming just about anything I choose to about you. I say "you" because you are not "me" (thankfully). If you don't feel any sort of kinship toward either Great Britain or China, then I suppose that is your perogative, but I tend to refer to myself and my allegiances interchangably (USA, WA State, sports teams, clubs, the Seattle Metro area, my military branch/component/unit, etc.).

Then perhaps it would be prudent to tell your avid readers of that before addressing them. Are you in the milly dairy then. I didn't know that. It would explain quite a lot.