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Thread: Proof That God Exists

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    Quote Originally Posted by apple0154 View Post

    I asked Dix, "So, is it your position if two cells fuse and produce, say, a cancer cell the fused cell was a human being?"
    which is why I pointed out you were wrong about where cancer cells come from....

    Or a cell missing any number of components necessary to become a human being.
    cancer cells are not "any cell missing a number of components necessary to become a human being"......any skin cell is a cell missing any number of components necessary to become a human being and skin cells are not by definition cancer cells.....
    Isaiah 6:5
    “Woe to me!” I cried. “I am ruined! For I am a man of unclean lips, and I live among a people of unclean lips, and my eyes have seen the King, the Lord Almighty.”

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    Quote Originally Posted by apple0154 View Post
    Second, while the zygote may create differentiated cells it may also not create the necessary differentiated cells such as seen in babies born without an anus.
    that is a deformation, which can occur naturally among human beings....is a baby born without an anus something other than a human being?....
    Isaiah 6:5
    “Woe to me!” I cried. “I am ruined! For I am a man of unclean lips, and I live among a people of unclean lips, and my eyes have seen the King, the Lord Almighty.”

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    Quote Originally Posted by apple0154 View Post
    She simply wants it removed from her body.
    which obviously should be prohibited....
    Isaiah 6:5
    “Woe to me!” I cried. “I am ruined! For I am a man of unclean lips, and I live among a people of unclean lips, and my eyes have seen the King, the Lord Almighty.”

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    Quote Originally Posted by PostmodernProphet View Post
    which is why I pointed out you were wrong about where cancer cells come from....



    cancer cells are not "any cell missing a number of components necessary to become a human being"......any skin cell is a cell missing any number of components necessary to become a human being and skin cells are not by definition cancer cells.....
    The point is the fused cell or fertilized cell could produce a cell that does not contain the necessary ingredients to become a human being and I understand Dixie to be saying ANY cell which the fused/fertilized cell produces verifies the fused/fertilized cell is a human being and I'm saying that contradicts the definition of organism because the fused/fertilized cell was incapable of producing a proper cell. We do not know if the fused/fertilized cell was an organism and considering many of those cells do fail to produce a viable cell and, therefore, die it's reasonable to conclude those cells were of human material but not an organism.
    "May your reality be as pleasant as mine."

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    Quote Originally Posted by PostmodernProphet View Post
    that is a deformation, which can occur naturally among human beings....is a baby born without an anus something other than a human being?....
    If one wants to insist a human being has to qualify as an organism and qualifying as an organism means being able to carry on the processes of life it's obvious such a baby does not qualify as an organism. So, you tell me, is all this "qualifying as an organism" just anti-abortionist nonsense?

    That baby never possessed the necessary parts to qualify as an organism as it was unable to eliminate waste and organisms have to possess that capability.
    "May your reality be as pleasant as mine."

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    Quote Originally Posted by PostmodernProphet View Post
    which obviously should be prohibited....
    Why? Either it's not an organism or we do not know how to remove it. Why should the woman bear the burden of a society that decides to make an absurd classification (a zygote/embryo/fetus is a human being) and then throw their hands up when unable to deal with their lunacy?
    "May your reality be as pleasant as mine."

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    Quote Originally Posted by apple0154 View Post
    OK. We're getting there. Now, stop for a moment and think. Does the pregant woman " introduce something to the cells to make them grow"? If she does then "they don't qualify, because they couldn't carry on the process by themselves."
    That's the part you seem to be having trouble understanding. The female produced the egg, the male produced the sperm, but it is the fused cells which reproduce another cell, they do not need the female and the female adds nothing to make conception happen... in fact, this can occur completely outside the woman's body.

    Just as if the scientists stopped introducing nutrients to the skin cells they would stop growing if the pregnant woman stopped introducing nutrients to the cells via the umbilical cord those cells would stop growing. Surely even you are able to see that the exact same thing occurs.
    Again., skin cells do not reproduce themselves without the assistance of some other organism, skin cells are not organisms. Sorry.

    Copying and pasting your failed answers does not make them valid.
    The answers are just as valid this time as last, and they will be just as valid next time! You have some kind of fucked up mental problem which makes you crave argument or something! I've never seen anything like it, do you honestly not recall having this very same argument with these very same ill-fated points? Why do we have to type it all out, all over again? I don't understand that, it seems to be a complete waste of time and energy. You didn't refute the facts last time, and you can't refute them now, you just keep running in circles, not understanding what an [edit] you sound like... How the fuck can something DIE if it wasn't ALIVE?

    The obvious is staring you in the face and you just can't see it and the obvious is, "Just as if the scientists stopped introducing nutrients to the skin cells they would stop growing if the pregnant woman stopped introducing nutrients to the cells via the umbilical cord those cells would stop growing." What is it about that statement you are unable to grasp? What is preventing you from seeing the obvious?
    The nutrients provided to an organism are not what makes it an organism or doesn't make it an organism! If skin cells stop growing, they die... they were never organisms, because they couldn't carry on the process of reproduction by themselves. A human embryo IS an organism, completely independent of the host. If and when it dies, it is no longer a "living" organism. When it becomes no longer a living organism, it doesn't change the fact that it WAS a living organism.

    By the way, you forgot to answer my question. "So, is it your position if two cells fuse and produce, say, a cancer cell the fused cell was a human being?"
    I did answer your question. IF (it's impossible for this to happen, but IF it could)... the fused sperm and egg cells produced ANYTHING, they qualify as a living organism. PERIOD! Now, is any "living human organism" automatically a "human being?" That is a valid question, but you aren't asking it. I personally think it is, because it is a living human organism, and it is in the state of "being." Although, it is a human being at the earliest possible stage of development. AGAIN, I have stated all of this before in another thread.
    Last edited by BRUTALITOPS; 06-20-2012 at 08:02 PM. Reason: app rule 2

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    Quote Originally Posted by apple0154 View Post
    If one wants to insist a human being has to qualify as an organism and qualifying as an organism means being able to carry on the processes of life it's obvious such a baby does not qualify as an organism. So, you tell me, is all this "qualifying as an organism" just anti-abortionist nonsense?

    That baby never possessed the necessary parts to qualify as an organism as it was unable to eliminate waste and organisms have to possess that capability.
    Nothing in biology says that an organism must continue to function for an indeterminate amount of time, or be able to do anything other than reproduce. You continue to be confused by "carry on the process" as if you think it means in order to be a human being, it must be immortal! Are you planning on living forever, apple? If not, then you will one day stop carrying on the process of life, and die... does that mean you were never a human being, because you couldn't?

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    Quote Originally Posted by apple0154 View Post
    Why? Either it's not an organism or we do not know how to remove it. Why should the woman bear the burden of a society that decides to make an absurd classification (a zygote/embryo/fetus is a human being) and then throw their hands up when unable to deal with their lunacy?
    This whole entire issue is whether or not the woman has the right to terminate the life of another human being. You are ignorantly denying the fetus is a human being, or even a human organism! I guess, it is easier for you to accept abortion, if you think of it this way, but it has little to do with biological facts.

    I'm no genius when it comes to biology, but because my chosen field was psychology, in order to get into college, I needed so many science credits in high school, and I hated chemistry... therefore, I took a lot of advanced biology classes. So I suppose I might be a little better educated in biology than some, and I am light years ahead of you. You need to really go study the term "organism" and discover what makes something an "organism" and what doesn't, because you completely lack that knowledge, and you're looking like a complete boob on this topic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by apple0154 View Post
    The point is the fused cell or fertilized cell could produce a cell that does not contain the necessary ingredients to become a human being and I understand Dixie to be saying ANY cell which the fused/fertilized cell produces verifies the fused/fertilized cell is a human being and I'm saying that contradicts the definition of organism because the fused/fertilized cell was incapable of producing a proper cell. We do not know if the fused/fertilized cell was an organism and considering many of those cells do fail to produce a viable cell and, therefore, die it's reasonable to conclude those cells were of human material but not an organism.
    Again, it is the art of reproduction that matters. If the fused cells reproduced something, even though it was incomplete or inadequate, they met the criteria of a living organism. They may have only barely met the criteria, they may expire and stop being a living organism almost immediately, but there is no other point in time at which you can define when an organism begins, other than it's ability to reproduce something. It defies science, it defies biological fact, and it defies common sense.

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    Quote Originally Posted by apple0154 View Post
    and I understand Dixie to be saying ANY cell which the fused/fertilized cell produces verifies the fused/fertilized cell is a human being
    /shrugs.....since he hasn't said that, I doubt you really "understand" him to say that.......what he has said is correct, that when a sperm and egg combine to form a zygote, that zygote is capable of producing more cells as needed for the zygote to survive as a human being.....
    Isaiah 6:5
    “Woe to me!” I cried. “I am ruined! For I am a man of unclean lips, and I live among a people of unclean lips, and my eyes have seen the King, the Lord Almighty.”

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    Quote Originally Posted by apple0154 View Post
    If one wants to insist a human being has to qualify as an organism and qualifying as an organism means being able to carry on the processes of life it's obvious such a baby does not qualify as an organism.
    of course a baby qualifies as an organism....
    Isaiah 6:5
    “Woe to me!” I cried. “I am ruined! For I am a man of unclean lips, and I live among a people of unclean lips, and my eyes have seen the King, the Lord Almighty.”

  13. The Following User Says Thank You to PostmodernProphet For This Post:

    Dixie - In Memoriam (05-21-2012)

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    Quote Originally Posted by apple0154 View Post
    Why? Either it's not an organism or we do not know how to remove it. Why should the woman bear the burden of a society that decides to make an absurd classification (a zygote/embryo/fetus is a human being) and then throw their hands up when unable to deal with their lunacy?
    because all of your assumptions are false.....
    Isaiah 6:5
    “Woe to me!” I cried. “I am ruined! For I am a man of unclean lips, and I live among a people of unclean lips, and my eyes have seen the King, the Lord Almighty.”

  15. The Following User Says Thank You to PostmodernProphet For This Post:

    Dixie - In Memoriam (05-21-2012)

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    Quote Originally Posted by PostmodernProphet View Post
    /shrugs.....since he hasn't said that, I doubt you really "understand" him to say that.......what he has said is correct, that when a sperm and egg combine to form a zygote, that zygote is capable of producing more cells as needed for the zygote to survive as a human being.....
    This goes to the nucleus of thought. We must establish the criteria for "organisms" in science, and we have. There is no doubt or question as to what the criteria are, it is well understood and defined by science. Whenever any group (or couple) of cells reproduce other cells, or even one cell, without outside stimulation, it has met the criteria for a "living organism." By sheer process of elimination, it can't be anything else, according to science. It's certainly not inorganic, because inorganic material can't "produce" anything. A virus can reproduce, but it requires a host, so it doesn't meet the criteria for an organism and an embryo doesn't meet the criteria of a virus. Other than that, there is no way for two fused cells to independently reproduce another cell, and NOT be a living organism, it defies science.

    Apple continues to ignorantly refute his own point, he contends that since it was alive and then died, it was never alive to begin with, and this is just FALSE.

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    Let me add this, hopefully, not to confuse apple too much, but rather for clarity, before some anal-retentive pinhead chortles in on it... There are also single-cell organisms, some bacteria fit this category, but again, since we are discussing the fused egg and sperm cell, the organism in question is obviously not "single cell" and also doesn't meet the criteria for a bacterial organism. Inorganic material can't reproduce itself, and all other reproductions require the assistance of some organism. A fused sperm and egg cell do not require anything else, including the host, we have been making babies in test tubes for years. We don't add anything to the fused cells, they reproduce and function as an organism from point of conception, therefore, they are a living human organism.

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