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    Default Proof That God Exists

    Ah, yes, that age-old question argued between seculars and non-seculars, Atheists and Christians, and greatest minds of our times. We've had the debates here before, numerous times, and it's always interesting to me, how we never begin by setting some foundations of understanding with regard to context. We immediately seem to jump into the usual talking points, and have the same argument over and over. Let us attempt to slow this down a bit, and begin by coming to understanding on the meanings and context of the question, before we attempt to answer the question.

    We need to agree on what 'exists' means first. Do we mean, in a physical sense? I think it's safe to say, God doesn't exist in a physical sense. Most forms of belief in a god, require the god to be superior to physical man, therefore, we can presume any God would have to exist in a form outside of our physical world. Can we agree? Now, I can say that I know the Christian religion, for instance, believed God existed in a physical man, Jesus Christ. Much of their religious doctrine of belief is centered around his teachings, but for the most part, God's are not of the physical world, they are superior beings or entities, and outside of our physical universe. Given this information, to require God to exist in a physical sense, or to be proven to exist by physical sciences, is pretty useless and irrelevant.

    So, God doesn't exist in a physical sense, and it's pointless to try and prove existence with physical parameters. In order to properly examine the question, we need to evaluate 'exist' as meaning, in a spiritual sense, because that is what God is, a spiritual entity. Now, whether something 'exists' in a spiritual sense, is very difficult, in fact, impossible to prove or disprove. Much of this relies on faith or comprehension of the individual. For instance, let's take something else that is 'not of the physical world' like a dream, and examine this. When you have a dream, did the events actually happen in the physical world? No, of course not. But the events did happen in your dream, you remember them vividly. You can come to me and tell me what you dreamed, and I can choose to have faith and believe you, or not. You can't physically prove you dreamed what you said, and your dream is in essence, your comprehension of what you recall. Did the events of your dream take place in the physical world? Then why would you require physical proof of their existence? To properly evaluate a spiritual entity, you have to apply spiritual criteria, which largely relies on faith.

    Now, you will say, but we need more than "faith!" And the simple fact of the matter is, even the most sophisticated math and science, relies on faith. The very principles of all physical science, rely on the order of the universe to remain the same at all times and never change. Gravity always works in a predictable way, we have faith that it will continue to do so. If you believe in a theory of evolution, you must have faith the theory is correct. So we have faith in whatever we believe, whether it is faith in physical science applied to the physical universe, or spiritual faith applied to the spiritual realm. To conflate the difference between physical and spiritual realms, is often the result on not first properly defining the context of the question. If we are going to honestly ask the question, we must apply the proper parameters and context. We can't leap back and forth from the physical realm and demanding physical proof, and back to the spiritual realm, they are two different things.

    It would be as if, you have someone who doesn't believe in physical sciences and thinks the rain is caused by God crying. You can show him all the physical proof you want, but he doesn't believe in the physical sciences. He refuses to acknowledge them, and insists the rain is caused by God crying. You ask him for 'proof' and he promptly replies; "Because God told me so! Can you prove he didn't?" Of course, you can't, and he is basing his belief on a spiritual faith, devoid of any belief in physical science, but the point is, rain is not caused by God crying, we know through physical science, what causes rain. The same can be said for seculars and Atheists, who demand physical proof and refuse to acknowledge the spiritual realm. If you aren't willing to open your mind to the possibility of something else, you will remain as ignorant as the example presented, closed-minded to understanding and in the dark on this most prolific question.

    The spiritual evidence for the spiritual existence for a spiritual God, is overwhelming. Countless spiritual believers can attest to this. Accounts of people overcoming tremendous adversities, outright 'miracles' brought about through their faith and prayers, years of oppression and bondage overcome, great nations created. The evidence of God's work can be seen in our flowers and life, in our mountains and sunsets, and in the face of every newborn child. Tracking our civilizations, we find that mankind has always been spiritual in nature. Psychologists have said, if God didn't exist, man would have to invent it. We are hard-wired this way, to worship in a spiritual way, something greater than self. This has been an aspect of humans since humans began. Some believe, it is ultimately what led to the rise of modern civilization.

    Now, being that humans have always held this particular character trait, and we know through studies of animal behavior, all inherent intrinsic behavior is present for a reason, we have to presume there is a reason for humans to be inclined to spirituality, there is no other scientific explanation for this. To this day, 95% of the world population, believe in something greater than self. Of course, these beliefs range widely, and to varying degrees, but only 5% are true Nihilists, and do not believe in anything at all. We can't argue with the physical sciences here, if the species has always worshiped, there must be a fundamental purpose for it. So sayeth, Darwin, anyway.

    The bottom line is, we haven't really answered the question, because the question is subject to interpretation and understanding of context. Regardless of which way you answer the question, your answer relies solely on faith and you have no physical evidence to support it. However, the spiritual existence of God doesn't require or need physical proof.

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    interesting and stimulating.....haven't ever approached the issue from this angle before......how much does a memory weigh?.....what color is an idea?....is knowledge metaphysical?.....was the concert that Mozart imagined something that can be studied by science?......
    Isaiah 6:5
    “Woe to me!” I cried. “I am ruined! For I am a man of unclean lips, and I live among a people of unclean lips, and my eyes have seen the King, the Lord Almighty.”

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    Quote Originally Posted by PostmodernProphet View Post
    interesting and stimulating.....haven't ever approached the issue from this angle before......how much does a memory weigh?.....what color is an idea?....is knowledge metaphysical?.....was the concert that Mozart imagined something that can be studied by science?......
    Exactly. There is an almost immediate misconception when arguing God's existence, that physical science can apply here, when it can't apply, by definition. Just as physical science can't apply to dreams, thoughts, or imagination. There are things we commonly know and understand are not explained or proven with physical science, because physical science doesn't apply. This is not to say physical science is no good, or inadequate, or that it can't one day discover something connecting to spirituality, anything is possible. It's just that physical science can't explain supernatural things, just as it can't explain dreams and thoughts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PostmodernProphet View Post
    interesting and stimulating.....haven't ever approached the issue from this angle before......how much does a memory weigh?.....what color is an idea?....is knowledge metaphysical?.....was the concert that Mozart imagined something that can be studied by science?......
    How much does a ham sandwhich weigh? blah, blah, blah.
    You're Never Alone With A Schizophrenic!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Derp Derp View Post
    How much does a ham sandwhich weigh? blah, blah, blah.
    ???....you don't think you can weigh a ham sandwich?......
    Isaiah 6:5
    “Woe to me!” I cried. “I am ruined! For I am a man of unclean lips, and I live among a people of unclean lips, and my eyes have seen the King, the Lord Almighty.”

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    Quote Originally Posted by PostmodernProphet View Post
    ???....you don't think you can weigh a ham sandwich?......
    How much does umami weigh?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aoxomoxoa View Post
    How much does umami weigh?
    is your question savory?.....(okay, I have to admit I had to look it up).......
    Isaiah 6:5
    “Woe to me!” I cried. “I am ruined! For I am a man of unclean lips, and I live among a people of unclean lips, and my eyes have seen the King, the Lord Almighty.”

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    Quote Originally Posted by PostmodernProphet View Post
    ???....you don't think you can weigh a ham sandwich?......
    One could weigh the evidence against a ham sandwich.
    "May your reality be as pleasant as mine."

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    Quote Originally Posted by PostmodernProphet View Post
    ???....you don't think you can weigh a ham sandwich?......
    No, I mean I could care less what a ham sandwhich weighs and that's about what all this philosophizing adds up to.
    You're Never Alone With A Schizophrenic!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Derp Derp View Post
    No, I mean I could care less what a ham sandwhich weighs and that's about what all this philosophizing adds up to.
    if you don't like philosophizing, why visit a thread where it's happening....you could have just as easily stayed in the shallow end of the pool......
    Isaiah 6:5
    “Woe to me!” I cried. “I am ruined! For I am a man of unclean lips, and I live among a people of unclean lips, and my eyes have seen the King, the Lord Almighty.”

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    Quote Originally Posted by Derp Derp View Post
    How much does a ham sandwhich weigh? blah, blah, blah.
    Not sure but I heard they can be indicted by a Grand Jury.
    "May your reality be as pleasant as mine."

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    Quote Originally Posted by apple0154 View Post
    Not sure but I heard they can be indicted by a Grand Jury.
    Aint that the damned truth!
    You're Never Alone With A Schizophrenic!

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    "...To die—to sleep,
    No more; and by a sleep to say we end
    The heart-ache and the thousand natural shocks
    That flesh is heir to: 'tis a consummation
    Devoutly to be wish'd. To die, to sleep...."

    An imitation of death comes every time we sleep and resembles those billions of years before that tiny swimmer met an egg it liked and you and all the billions who came before were born and died. Life is natural only our hopes make it otherwise. Be careful so you don't join the trillions who left before.


    life chance eternity

    Why do you exist.

    Schopenhauer thought that animals possessed one wisdom we miss, the wisdom to live in the present moment. “I mean their quiet, placid enjoyment of the present moment.”

    If you believe in an afterlife what will you do there for eternity? Eternity is a long time and the idea that a billion years from now you will still exist because two people enjoyed a passionate moment is hard to comprehend. Who will you be then.

    Two things amaze me, the past and the future but neither include me. In this moment we live and in this and in this.

    I know the exact time and place our second child was conceived. When we moved recently I thought of that as we left. I know why I remember.

    Imagine for a moment your parents had been interrupted. Suppose someone had shone a flashlight in the backseat of the car you were conceived in, you would not exist. A knock at a door. Some interruption. If only a few seconds passed a different sperm would have meant a different person and you as you exist now would never have been.

    What would the person born in that next minute have been. In a month a new egg, so now who would that person be, it would not be you. How easy it would be that we never were. Some distinctive piece changes but that distinctive part is you.

    Imagine the egg split, which of the two would have been you. If you arrived second your entire life would be noted in a brief moment. You would be number two. Or if first you would be number one. How would that have changed who you are now.

    Before you were born life existed for billions of years, after you die billions of years will pass without you. You will be conscious in the future as you were conscious in the past, not at all. Think of any place. Right now someone is in that place and someone is in another place. They are unaware of the other. They think they know all there is to know. Most will die and never know each other. Chances are nothing that either believe will impact the other.

    You walk into the street and are hit by a car. You live now but only in your mind. You cannot move even your eyes and you lie there fully aware of everything but unable to respond. Weeks go by and soon few come to visit. Soon no one comes but you still live. What do you think of. What is the mind without the body.

    Someone arrives and says we have a body for this mind. But the body is a woman, your mind now is in the body of a woman. How will that change you. Now your mind lives in another.

    Suppose when you crossed that street you had the opportunity to throw someone else in front of the car. It was them or you. You do not know the future. If you pushed the other person in front of the car would you visit them. For how long. What would you tell them when they became a body.

    Imagine a date in the future without you. Do that, then look at what happens next and then tomorrow and imagine you are no longer here. It will not matter. What will you wish you had done. I wonder what Timothy McVeigh would have thought of 911? Weird thought - evil is the reason we wish for hell.

    You must select one only: you will live forever ugly and deformed or you will live for fifty years as a brilliant person. Which do you choose. Are you sure. You have three minutes in which to make your selection.

    Sleep is so peaceful.
    Wanna make America great, buy American owned, made in the USA, we do. AF Veteran, INFJ-A, I am not PC.

    "I have never made but one prayer to God, a very short one: 'O Lord make my enemies ridiculous.' And God granted it." Voltaire

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    God only exists in the mind of the believer.

    The same can be said about EVERY diety.

    The same can be said about Bigfoot.
    AMERICAN HISTORY ITSELF IS A TESTAMENT TO THE STRENGTH AND RESILIENCE OF AFRICAN PEOPLE. WE, ALONG WITH THE COURGE AND SACRIFICES OF CONSCIOUS WHITE AMERICANS, LIKE VIOLA LIUZZO, EVERETT DIRKSEN, AND MANY OTHERS, HAVE FOUGHT AND DIED TOGETHER FOR OUR FREEDOM, AND FOR OUR SURVIVAL.

    In America, rights are are not determined by what is just, fair, equitable, honest, nor by what Jesus would do. Rights are determined ONLY by what you can DEMAND.

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