Some are still in the dark on Obama

[Canceled]

As I’ve explained numerous times it has nothing to do with equality but you are having difficulty grasping that point so it looks like I’ll have to break this down further. So, we’ll start with, “Is a TV one of life’s necessities?”

Obviously, they must be, since the average family living below the poverty line has 1.4 televisions.

No, the group, represented by the government, will decide as long as you are part of the group just like they decided that if you bring your money back here you will be taxed. Get used to it.

Got a little analogy for you here Apple... Let's say you are retiring from your office, and the staff has decided to throw a retirement party. Now, they have tow options on your gift, they can each go out and buy something for you individually, or they can pool their monies and buy one gift... which way are YOU likely to come out BETTER? Everybody can spend what they want, or each person can put a set amount in the kitty.... which is better, Apple? I'll tell you which, it's when you leave it up to the individual what to spend, instead of setting an arbitrary amount. And don't tell me what to get used to, punk motherfucker! I don't have to get used to Socialism!

Predatory lending. Low interest rates to start and then raise them. It’s like buying something and not knowing what the ultimate price will be.

What? Are you trying to say that our precious government, in a vain attempt to make housing more affordable for the poor and needy, actually created a predatory lending scam instead? How the fuck did that happen, Apple? I thought you were about HELPING people, not TRAPPING people in scams? Why would you ever condone such a thing, much less, continue to vote for and support the people who did it?

One does not have to die. I said people were starving. They lack the money to buy nutritious meals which results in contracting illnesses and diseases and where does that lead? It leads to medical care and we all know that boondoggle that Obama is trying to change.

If I were starving and owned 1.4 televisions, I would probably sell them and buy food. OR I would sell the 1.2 cars I typically own, or the air conditioner... but who needs to do that, when we have saps like you giving away other people's money?

So, you’re against people being fed properly and you’re against people receiving medical attention when they become ill due to not being fed properly. You’re a real nice guy, Dix.

Yes, that's what I am against, Apple. I said exactly those words, didn't I? Yep... I want people starving and sick, dying in the streets! My goal is to have everyone eventually be starving and sick and dying in the streets, that will make me giddy with joy! You retarded moron!

Great. So you’re a happy man with no complaints.

Relatively speaking.

Of course you and others would love to bring that money back. Enjoy that money in this society while not contributing to it. However, there is always the alternative. Go to where the money is.

Not contributing to it? How do you figure we're all going to bring trillions of dollars back into the economy, dwarfing most any "stimulus" package you could possibly envision, and yet.... it's not going to contribute? I would think, when I started spending all that wealth, it would probably make it's way into the economy, causing people to be hired, new businesses to open, production increased to meet my demands, etc. Most anything I would choose to spend my wealth on, would require me to pay some amount in sales tax, since that is normally the procedure. Those would be sales tax dollars which presently do not exist, because the money isn't here to be spent.

I should also think, if I did what I said I would like to do, and opened some kind of business with my wealth, it would probably turn a profit. On that profit, I would pay income taxes, again... tax money that can't be collected if the money is never spent because it isn't here to spend. Is any of this making sense to you? Trillions of dollars abroad, not doing us one bit of good, and you had rather keep it that way, than to reconsider your own ignorant stupidity. No, there is yet another alternative, Apple... to leave the money right where it is for now.... which is MY personal choice.

Exactly. When you gave your children an allowance did you ask for part of it back?

My children never got one dime of allowance they didn't earn by doing chores around the house. Again, if you want to adopt some kind of work-for-welfare deal, I am all ears!

I know it’s difficult for you to comprehend so I’ll spell it out. The conditions are worsening. Larger areas are becoming dangerous areas. Or put another way people are required to build more and more gated communities.

You were talking about how when you travel to a foreign country, they tell you to stay near the resort, and lamented that we didn't want America turning into that. Well, parts of America are already like that now! After pointing this out, you have done a complete 180, and are now trying to argue the opposite point... the opposite point was MINE! Fucktard!

YES, things are getting worse! Thanks to decades of Liberal Socialist idiocy which has driven this nation to the brink of bankruptcy. It's time for a new idea!

If you are still having difficulties following along let me know.

It does get quite confusing as you flip-flop around on what you believe.

Again, difficulty in comprehension. The free market, the invisible hand….things associated with unrestricted capitalism has shown us they do not work. Even Greenspan admitted to Congress he was wrong. His philosophy, his idea of how people and society worked was wrong. Just like you’re wrong.

Greenspan admitted nothing of the sort, that is pure propaganda, spun from snippets of a speech he gave, where his words were mangled into this rhetoric, it's just simply untrue. Free market capitalism is the reason the United States is, and has been, the world's leading superpower. But let's get back to your contradiction... You first staid; "Capitalists have had 80 years to bring something to the plate... it's time for a new idea." Then you followed that up with continued insistence you are not a Socialist and don't condone Socialism. Well what do you think is the new idea we need to try other than Capitalism, Apple? What you continue to advocate is Socialism. What you are saying here, is Capitalism hasn't worked and we should abandon it for Socialist policies. I guess one could make the nit-picky argument that it's actually Marxism, but I consider that a part of Socialism, and I think most people believe the same way.

Looks like I have to repeat myself again. No one is trying to change the nature of certain human beings. There will always be those chasing the dollar regardless of how much or how little they ultimately get to keep and that’s fine. Let them connive and seek loopholes and devise all sorts of shady ways to grab the dollar but remember these wise words, “Never let a crisis go to waste.” Let the greedy do whatever they want (within reason, of course) to grab all they can and then tax them. It saves the government time. The money is all in one place.

Well Apple, I really wish when you repeat yourself, you'd avoid contradicting what you said previously. It would make this argument go much more smoothly. It appears you have done another complete 180, and now are arguing MY point! I have said all along, let the "greedy wealth bastards" have and spend their wealth! Stop trying to punish them with the tax codes and mandates, and let the greedy sons of bitches spend their fucking wealth, so we can benefit from the tax revenues! This is what every conservative since Ronald Reagan has said as well! You are better off with less regulation, less taxation, less restriction, and MORE CAPITALISM!

Yes, dumbass. Certain groups of needy. Take a church charity, for example. As I mentioned before if a widow who sings in the choir requires financial help you can bet she’ll receive it before the single mother with 5 kids who doesn’t attend church regularly. Of course, the church will continue to preach how special children are and condemn abortion while the children go hungry.

I have personally worked with three national charity organizations and about a half-dozen local charity organizations, for a total of about 25 years service in all, and in all those years, and all those various religious and non-religious based charities, I have never once known of them discriminating or turning someone away who needed help. You can make all the false claims you like, you haven't given a single example, and my guess is, you simply can't, because what you are saying is just not the truth.

Then why are you disagreeing with what I write? I’m for taxing the people and letting them acquire the money any way they want (again, within reason).

Sorry, it's just really difficult because I never know when you are going to completely reverse something you said previously. One minute you are opposed to Capitalists, think we need to try something else, the next minute you're telling us Capitalists should be allowed to make as much money as they want, and you're not a Socialist. It gets confusing. If you would try remaining consistent in your views throughout the thread, perhaps I wouldn't have so much trouble understanding you, and maybe we wouldn't find ourselves in this situation?

Great! The government will know where the money is thereby making it easier to collect.

The government can collect tax revenue, that's money which comes from taxing profits or incomes. If someone isn't making a profit or earning an income, there is no money for the government to collect. They can't just confiscate wealth, that is against the Constitution.

Then let them keep their marbles in Indonesia or Germany or some other country. Let them enjoy the money there. Why are they, like you, bitching about bringing the money back here? Go to the money. Live in the society where they make their money. Sounds logical to me. They love money and they make money in those societies so they must like them? Or do they?

Well we are letting them do that Apple, we have no other choice, we can't confiscate their wealth! I know it's pleasing for you to continue pushing these people out of this country and into foreign countries, but it really doesn't do a thing to help the US gain more money in tax revenue or stimulate a fledgling economy, and continuing to let more of it happen, isn't going to make matters better.

I could live like a king in Germany, if I wanted to. I don't want to live in Germany! My family and friends are here, my home is here, I want to stay here until I die, I don't want to go live in Germany. And I would like to bring my wealth back to my own country to spend and invest, but you are standing in the way of that, because you are so envious that I have money and you don't, and unless you can figure out a way to finagle my money from me, you simply refuse to budge. Fuck you, I'll leave my money in Germany! You'll get not one penny of it!

You’re very benevolent but the government wanting to help the needy with your money is stealing and punishing. Yea, right. Sure, Dix. The truth is you’re not interested in helping the needy. You’re interested in giving to those you want to give to and to hell with the others. You want to decide who is needy and who isn’t. You want to be little god. Sorry. That doesn’t work here.

When did I ever say I wanted to be a little god? Again, I have a total of about 25 years, volunteering for various charities. I will bet that you have probably never volunteered for any charity. In your eyes, charity work shouldn't be your responsibility, that's why we have government. Here's an example comparing NPOs to government; I give $100 to the Salvation Army.. About $5 goes to administrative costs, and $95 goes to helping feed homeless people. On the other hand, I give $100 to the government in taxes, whereby, $50 is eaten up in administration costs, and the remaining $50 is spent on a grant to study the mating habits of spider monkeys. Which way has actually HELPED people in need more?

[apple0154]

[QUOTE=Dixie;996044]

(Apple) Again, difficulty in comprehension. The free market, the invisible hand….things associated with unrestricted capitalism has shown us they do not work. Even Greenspan admitted to Congress he was wrong. His philosophy, his idea of how people and society worked was wrong. Just like you’re wrong.

(Dixie) Greenspan admitted nothing of the sort, that is pure propaganda, spun from snippets of a speech he gave, where his words were mangled into this rhetoric, it's just simply untrue. Free market capitalism is the reason the United States is, and has been, the world's leading superpower. But let's get back to your contradiction... You first staid; "Capitalists have had 80 years to bring something to the plate... it's time for a new idea." Then you followed that up with continued insistence you are not a Socialist and don't condone Socialism. Well what do you think is the new idea we need to try other than Capitalism, Apple? What you continue to advocate is Socialism. What you are saying here, is Capitalism hasn't worked and we should abandon it for Socialist policies. I guess one could make the nit-picky argument that it's actually Marxism, but I consider that a part of Socialism, and I think most people believe the same way.

Following is an excerpt. Do try to read for comprehension.

(Excerpt) REP. HENRY WAXMAN: The question I have for you is, you had an ideology, you had a belief that free, competitive -- and this is your statement -- "I do have an ideology. My judgment is that free, competitive markets are by far the unrivaled way to organize economies. We've tried regulation. None meaningfully worked." That was your quote.

You had the authority to prevent irresponsible lending practices that led to the subprime mortgage crisis. You were advised to do so by many others. And now our whole economy is paying its price.

Do you feel that your ideology pushed you to make decisions that you wish you had not made?

ALAN GREENSPAN: Well, remember that what an ideology is, is a conceptual framework with the way people deal with reality. Everyone has one. You have to -- to exist, you need an ideology. The question is whether it is accurate or not.

And what I'm saying to you is, yes, I found a flaw. I don't know how significant or permanent it is, but I've been very distressed by that fact.

REP. HENRY WAXMAN: You found a flaw in the reality...

ALAN GREENSPAN: Flaw in the model that I perceived is the critical functioning structure that defines how the world works, so to speak.

REP. HENRY WAXMAN: In other words, you found that your view of the world, your ideology, was not right, it was not working?

ALAN GREENSPAN: That is -- precisely. No, that's precisely the reason I was shocked, because I had been going for 40 years or more with very considerable evidence that it was working exceptionally well. (End)
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/busin...ing_10-23.html

Did you follow that? I underlined the "Cole's Notes" version to help you.

Greenspan was wrong just as you are wrong. Unrestricted capitalism does not work. How do you expect the situation/country to repair itself when fools like you continue to believe it does? That is why Republicans have to be as far away from power as possible because they hold those same old, tired, worn-out ideas which Obama referred to during the health care debate. Greenspan's ideology was faulty just as the ideology of the Republican, right wing ideology is faulty. Just as your ideology is faulty.

This is not a guess. This is not an opinion. It is a fact. It has been proven faulty. The world is living with the disaster such faulty ideology caused. Until you are able to accept that fact it's useless to continue debating anything else. Trying to explain something to you is like trying to explain the movement of the planets and the cause of day and night to a flat earth believer. One can not explain sunrise and sunset to one who believes in a flat, stationary earth just as one can not explain the failures of the economic system to one who believes, like Greenspan, in unfettered capitalism.

Furthermore, as the video (The Warning/PBS) portrays people like Greenspan usually do not change their ideology until disaster strikes and even then many are blind to the facts.

You wrote, "Fuck you, I'll leave my money in Germany! You'll get not one penny of it!"

Do some research, Dixie. You can whine and complain about Obama and not being able to repatriate your funds from Germany without paying your dues to society but to use an old phrase, "You're pissin' in the wind." As you continue to defy paying the proper taxes you can not enjoy that money here. Depending on the amount it's not a case of cutting off ones nose to spite their face but more like cutting off ones head to spite society. So, back to you, "Fuck you, you'll leave your money in Germany! You'll get not one penny of it!"

[dixon76710]

Again, difficulty in comprehension. The free market, the invisible hand….things associated with unrestricted capitalism has shown us they do not work. Even Greenspan admitted to Congress he was wrong.

He said he found a flaw, not that they dont work.

[apple0154]

He said he found a flaw, not that they dont work.

Flaw: a feature that mars the perfection of something; defect; fault:

How can something work if it has a defect or fault?

[Canceled]

Flaw: a feature that mars the perfection of something; defect; fault:

How can something work if it has a defect or fault?

Lot of things work and have defects or flaws. Very few things are "perfect."

IDIOT!

[apple0154]

Lot of things work and have defects or flaws. Very few things are "perfect."

IDIOT!

Talk about idiocy you think an ideology that brought the world to the brink of financial collapse had a "flaw"? A slight defect? Not quite perfect? Perhaps, more like a complete disaster would be more appropriate.

[Canceled]

Talk about idiocy you think an ideology that brought the world to the brink of financial collapse had a "flaw"? A slight defect? Not quite perfect? Perhaps, more like a complete disaster would be more appropriate.

But that's not what Greenspan said, is it?

And let's be perfectly clear, the 'ideology' is responsible for creating the greatest superpower mankind has ever known. While it may have a flaw or two, it is light years ahead of any other opposing 'ideology' in terms of success. What has proven to be a complete disaster, is 4 years of trying to destroy this ideology... but you keep trying!

[PostmodernProphet]

Talk about idiocy you think an ideology that brought the world to the brink of financial collapse had a "flaw"?

liberalism?.......

[dixon76710]

Flaw: a feature that mars the perfection of something; defect; fault:

How can something work if it has a defect or fault?

When the defect is government incentives, you eliminate the government incentives.

[Jarod]

Obama IS the Dark Knight!

[apple0154]

But that's not what Greenspan said, is it?

And let's be perfectly clear, the 'ideology' is responsible for creating the greatest superpower mankind has ever known. While it may have a flaw or two, it is light years ahead of any other opposing 'ideology' in terms of success. What has proven to be a complete disaster, is 4 years of trying to destroy this ideology... but you keep trying!

The disaster goes back more than 4 years. Just one example is medical care. Free enterprise. The invisible hand. Charge what the market will bear and to hell with the 45,000 people who die every year because they can't bear the cost. You call that success?

[CanceledB]

But that's not what Greenspan said, is it?

And let's be perfectly clear, the 'ideology' is responsible for creating the greatest superpower mankind has ever known. While it may have a flaw or two, it is light years ahead of any other opposing 'ideology' in terms of success. What has proven to be a complete disaster, is 4 years of trying to destroy this ideology... but you keep trying!

Greenspan!

[Rana]

Greenspan!

What is so great about being a superpower?

[CanceledB]

What is so great about being a superpower?

Beats me. You get to be number one in obesity?

Number one in most money spent on weapons?

Biggest oil glutton on the planet?

Yippee.

[Canceled]

The disaster goes back more than 4 years. Just one example is medical care. Free enterprise. The invisible hand. Charge what the market will bear and to hell with the 45,000 people who die every year because they can't bear the cost. You call that success?

Why do you keep mentioning "the invisible hand?" There is no "invisible hand" when it comes to capitalism and free enterprise. There are consumers and capitalists, and they mutually benefit from transaction with each other. When they engage in these transactions, tax revenue is generated, which funds the government. There is not a magic hand or invisible hand. None of this has anything to do with health care, as much as you want to talk about the mythical 45,000 dead people who couldn't use the health clinic. Greenspan basically said the "flaw" was the result of the government misunderstanding what the hell they were doing, when they started monkeying around with the rates. IF government had stayed the hell out of it, and allowed capitalists to do what they do, there would have been no flaw!