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Thread: How we judge Presidents!

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    Default How we judge Presidents!

    The operation to kill Osama Bin Ladden could very likely had gone badly. Simply by the grace of God, some chance could have resulted in a Carter rescueing the hostages in Iran style trajety.

    We would be sitting here discussing how awfull Obama is and how pittafull of a leader his is. The attacks on him would be relentless.

    I do not belive President Obama and others should be judged solely on the success or failure of the actions, but on the decisions themselves. So we should not be so in love with him simply because this mission was a success, and we should not hate Carter simply because his mission was not. Instead we should respect the gutsy acton taken regardless of the results.... Or we should dislike the risky illresponsable decision they made, regardless of the result.

    Often, the correct decision will, due to chance or grace, simply go badly.

    This logic is why I belive for example, Attempted Murder should have the same punishment as Murder. Its the planning, and decision making that matters, not so much the result.

    I have lost trials that I felt great about because I did a great job. I have won trials that I felt terrable about, because I did not do my best. Lets try to judge our presidents and ourselves more on the substance than the result.

    I am proud of President Obama for the gutsy decision he made and for the way I hear it went down. I understand the President took imput from a vast variety of experts, he heard many options and opinions, he slept on it, came in the next day and anounced his decision.

    I like to belive that had that decision resulted in a catrostophy instead of success I would not change my position on the presidents actions.

    Certantly sometimes hopefully often good results come from good decisions, but chance has something to do with it and we should account for that.
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    18 U.S. Code § 2071 - Concealment, removal, or mutilation generally
    44 U.S.C. 2202 - The United States shall reserve and retain complete ownership, possession, and control of Presidential records; and such records shall be administered in accordance with the provisions of this chapter.


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    complete crock of shit. most people judge presidents by the letter after their names.
    A sad commentary on we, as a people, and our viewpoint of our freedom can be summed up like this. We have liberals and conservatives, Democrats and Republicans, yet those very people look at Constitutionalists as radical and extreme.................so those liberals and conservatives, Democrats and Republicans must believe that the constitution is radical and extreme.

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    Put simply - if it had turned out to be a disaster Obama would have been forever remembered, by his opponents, as a terrible President who messed everything up rather than a terrible President who got one decision correct and fucked everything else up.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SmarterThanYou View Post
    complete crock of shit. most people judge presidents by the letter after their names.
    That as well.

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    Most presidents need a war to get recognized. My top two are Washington and Monroe, the latter of which presided over the "Era of Good Feelings." Also in my Top 10 are Taft, who was a peacetime president and would have kept us out of WWI had we let him, and Eisenhower, who got us out of Korea.

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    nutjobs base on party, evidence above.
    Fucking ah Obama gets huge credit, see Carter's failure for precident.
    Will it alone get him re-elected? NO If you think it has no impact you need to get your nose out of Trump's crotch.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jarod View Post
    ...so in love with him...
    LOL This says it all. Fucking pitiful, worshiper.

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    The biggest part of the problem with Carter's rescue attempt was that we were clueless about fighting in a desert setting. We've had a little practice since then.

    Also, this time we let the professionals do their jobs instead of trying to micromanage it.

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    My point is that this should not guarantee the election for Obama.
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    18 U.S. Code § 2071 - Concealment, removal, or mutilation generally
    44 U.S.C. 2202 - The United States shall reserve and retain complete ownership, possession, and control of Presidential records; and such records shall be administered in accordance with the provisions of this chapter.


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    Quote Originally Posted by WinterBorn View Post
    The biggest part of the problem with Carter's rescue attempt was that we were clueless about fighting in a desert setting. We've had a little practice since then.

    Also, this time we let the professionals do their jobs instead of trying to micromanage it.
    The overall point is not a bad one, though. Carter's legacy would certainly been different if that rescue had taken place (though it still wouldn't be great), and Obama would have been villified for awhile if this one went awry.

    So much of life, and not just the Presidency, is execution. Peyton Manning can throw a decent game-winning pass, but if his receiver muffs it, he's still a choker to many...

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    Quote Originally Posted by WinterBorn View Post
    The biggest part of the problem with Carter's rescue attempt was that we were clueless about fighting in a desert setting. We've had a little practice since then.

    Also, this time we let the professionals do their jobs instead of trying to micromanage it.
    Yea, Jimmy should have kept up on his helicopter flying skills.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Onceler View Post
    The overall point is not a bad one, though. Carter's legacy would certainly been different if that rescue had taken place (though it still wouldn't be great), and Obama would have been villified for awhile if this one went awry.

    So much of life, and not just the Presidency, is execution. Peyton Manning can throw a decent game-winning pass, but if his receiver muffs it, he's still a choker to many...
    And Reagan is never vilified for undermining the President of the United States and negotiating with the enemy.
    The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness.
    John Kenneth Galbraith

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jarod View Post
    The operation to kill Osama Bin Ladden could very likely had gone badly. Simply by the grace of God, some chance could have resulted in a Carter rescueing the hostages in Iran style trajety.

    We would be sitting here discussing how awfull Obama is and how pittafull of a leader his is. The attacks on him would be relentless.

    I do not belive President Obama and others should be judged solely on the success or failure of the actions, but on the decisions themselves. So we should not be so in love with him simply because this mission was a success, and we should not hate Carter simply because his mission was not. Instead we should respect the gutsy acton taken regardless of the results.... Or we should dislike the risky illresponsable decision they made, regardless of the result.

    Often, the correct decision will, due to chance or grace, simply go badly.

    This logic is why I belive for example, Attempted Murder should have the same punishment as Murder. Its the planning, and decision making that matters, not so much the result.

    I have lost trials that I felt great about because I did a great job. I have won trials that I felt terrable about, because I did not do my best. Lets try to judge our presidents and ourselves more on the substance than the result.

    I am proud of President Obama for the gutsy decision he made and for the way I hear it went down. I understand the President took imput from a vast variety of experts, he heard many options and opinions, he slept on it, came in the next day and anounced his decision.

    I like to belive that had that decision resulted in a catrostophy instead of success I would not change my position on the presidents actions.

    Certantly sometimes hopefully often good results come from good decisions, but chance has something to do with it and we should account for that.
    I have to ask this Jarod, Who do you specifically mean by "We"?

    What I mean by that question is that how one evaluates a President is more then likely a reflection of ones own personal values.
    Last edited by Mott the Hoople; 05-03-2011 at 11:09 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by King of Kings View Post
    Most presidents need a war to get recognized. My top two are Washington and Monroe, the latter of which presided over the "Era of Good Feelings." Also in my Top 10 are Taft, who was a peacetime president and would have kept us out of WWI had we let him, and Eisenhower, who got us out of Korea.
    Taft? Are you fucking kidding me? Taft? Hell I'm from Ohio and I'm a shirt tail relative of his wife and Taft, to be generous, was a mediocre President and you're an idiotic isolationist if you don't think the US shouldn't have been involved in WWI. Now if you're talking about Chief Justices of SCOTUS, Taft was one of the very best and served his nation far better in that role then as Chief Executive. Taft had neither the energy, charisma, leadership, temperment or communications skills to be a great President but he was an outstanding and brilliant legal scholar and jurist and served his nation well indeed as Chief Justice of SCOTUS.
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    Quote Originally Posted by WinterBorn View Post
    The biggest part of the problem with Carter's rescue attempt was that we were clueless about fighting in a desert setting. We've had a little practice since then.

    Also, this time we let the professionals do their jobs instead of trying to micromanage it.
    That's not true. I'm reasonably sure that none of our Presidents since Carter are professionals at dessert war fare. Carter pulled the trigger on a decision to rescue the hostages. The mission failed and it cost him dearly politically. The success or failure of the mission had little, if anything, to do with Carter but with the military commanders who ran the operation. The same is true with Obama. He pulled the trigger on a very risky decision, just like Carter did, but his commanders pulled the mission off. Had this mission failed, Obama would have paid huge political price for it too.
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