Page 1 of 40 1234511 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 599

Thread: Understanding Socialism

  1. #1 | Top
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Posts
    24,050
    Thanks
    765
    Thanked 1,120 Times in 940 Posts
    Groans
    818
    Groaned 1,063 Times in 960 Posts

    Default Understanding Socialism

    I can remember when I was a young boy in elementary school, studying about the rest of the world in World History class. I guess, up until then, I assumed everyone lived basically the same kind of life as me, and we all had the same kind of democratic government, with liberty and justice for all. The thing that puzzled me, when we began to study about Communism, Socialism, Fascism, Totalitarianism, etc., was how did the people ever come to adopt such governments? It was always easy to see that American government was superior to, say... Nazi Germany, or the Ottoman Empire... but American government seemed to be such a simple concept, and I couldn't imagine how people managed to adopt other philosophies of government. Later, I would learn that many people simply never had a choice in the matter, these other forms of government had existed for centuries, and the people had very little power to control it or effect a change. Some were ruled by Kings, others by Dictators, and these rulers governed what laws the people lived by. Still, I couldn't understand, why would they not prefer freedom and liberty? I finally decided it must be, because they had never known freedom and liberty, so they had no idea of what they were missing. If you lived your entire life serving a master, do you know freedom? And isn't it much easier to lack desire for something you don't know and never have? I also realized there were places where the people never were allowed to see how Americans lived in freedom, they were kept isolated from this by their rulers. But I never could understand how places which had known some kind of freedom, could fall to Communism, Socialism, and Fascist Dictatorships... how did that happen? How could humans who had tasted freedom and liberty in some form, ever succumb to these barbaric forms of oppressive government? It never made any sense to me, and I have struggled with an answer my whole life.

    Thanks to the past 40 years of watching the liberal progressive movement in America, I am suddenly starting to realize some answers to these questions. It occurs to me, some people are not comfortable being free, and actually have a desire to be taken care of by someone else in exchange for their freedom. It's easier that way, there are no decisions or tough choices to make, someone else will do that for them, they just want to follow and have the security of knowing they are being cared for. This is how Socialist movements always begin. It is sold as a means to provide for the people, things they are unwilling to do for themselves individually. The premise being, the society as a whole, will be a much better place. People actually cede their freedom and liberty, for the promise of something better. It is rooted in greed, because they are giving up one of the most precious human rights for the hope of greater things.

    I could run down the long list of Socialist regimes which have failed, the history book is full of them. In fact, most of them fail within a few decades or generations, because they all seem to follow the same pattern of demise. They start off sounding lovely, but result in dividing society into two classes, without a middle class. You have the State, the elites... living in lavish luxury... and you have the Peasants. This happens every time, because Socialism doesn't reward individual accomplishment and effort, it stifles it. Any time you destroy human creativity and imagination, you also destroy motivation to achieve and accomplish. The people become mired in hopeless despair, and never bother trying to succeed... because, what is the point? If the State is going to take it from you and you are destined to remain in poverty, why would you want to do anything more than what the State required you to do?

    With Obama's Socialist transformation of America, we can see the makings of what will become the Elitist State. We already had the Labor Unions and Teachers, as well as Congress and Government workers, and now we have added the Financial sector, the Automotive sector, and soon to be, the Health Care sector and Insurance sector. Later, they will add the Energy sector, the Media, and a few other key components, and there will be no turning back. For the next 40-60 years, we will see those who control State power, get much wealthier, live much more luxuriously than ever before, while those of us not fortunate enough to be part of the Elite, struggle for our very survival. And the problem will be, there is no America to come save us from this.

  2. #2 | Top
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Posts
    6,841
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
    Groans
    0
    Groaned 0 Times in 0 Posts

    Default

    .999999e = 1

  3. #3 | Top
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Posts
    21,441
    Thanks
    73
    Thanked 1,982 Times in 1,405 Posts
    Groans
    0
    Groaned 287 Times in 274 Posts

    Default

    Shouldn't the thread title be "I don't understand Socialism?"

    You could use a primer...

  4. #4 | Top
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Posts
    47,970
    Thanks
    4,579
    Thanked 3,084 Times in 2,618 Posts
    Groans
    3,368
    Groaned 2,119 Times in 1,992 Posts

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Onceler View Post
    Shouldn't the thread title be "I don't understand Socialism?"

    You could use a primer...
    thats a great refutation...full of facts and stufffsss

  5. #5 | Top
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Posts
    61,485
    Thanks
    1,041
    Thanked 3,617 Times in 2,816 Posts
    Groans
    1,008
    Groaned 1,328 Times in 1,225 Posts

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Onceler View Post
    Shouldn't the thread title be "I don't understand Socialism?"

    You could use a primer...
    please, enlighten us unwashed heathens on the virtues of socialism.
    A sad commentary on we, as a people, and our viewpoint of our freedom can be summed up like this. We have liberals and conservatives, Democrats and Republicans, yet those very people look at Constitutionalists as radical and extreme.................so those liberals and conservatives, Democrats and Republicans must believe that the constitution is radical and extreme.

  6. #6 | Top
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Posts
    21,441
    Thanks
    73
    Thanked 1,982 Times in 1,405 Posts
    Groans
    0
    Groaned 287 Times in 274 Posts

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Yurt View Post
    thats a great refutation...full of facts and stufffsss
    Yeah - great "facts." This is about the 1,000th time that McCarthy here has screamed "socialism," and about the 10,000th time a rightie on this board has. It's fearmongering, and BS - and it becomes tired & meaningless through constant repetition.

    Nothing Obama is doing is "socialism." If YOU think it is, or if Dixie or anyone does, then you don't understand "socialism," and have never studied it. Period.

  7. #7 | Top
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Posts
    47,970
    Thanks
    4,579
    Thanked 3,084 Times in 2,618 Posts
    Groans
    3,368
    Groaned 2,119 Times in 1,992 Posts

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Onceler View Post
    Yeah - great "facts." This is about the 1,000th time that McCarthy here has screamed "socialism," and about the 10,000th time a rightie on this board has. It's fearmongering, and BS - and it becomes tired & meaningless through constant repetition.

    Nothing Obama is doing is "socialism." If YOU think it is, or if Dixie or anyone does, then you don't understand "socialism," and have never studied it. Period.
    IOW....you can't refute anything dixie said??? is this right?

    why don't you enlighten us and help us understand socialism, i'm curious as to which parts you think dixie has wrong and why....

  8. #8 | Top
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Posts
    21,441
    Thanks
    73
    Thanked 1,982 Times in 1,405 Posts
    Groans
    0
    Groaned 287 Times in 274 Posts

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Yurt View Post
    IOW....you can't refute anything dixie said??? is this right?

    why don't you enlighten us and help us understand socialism, i'm curious as to which parts you think dixie has wrong and why....
    If I say "the Republicans are Nazis", do you take people to task for not trying to "refute" me?

    Socialism is gov't control of business & the means of production. That isn't happening in America on a large or even small scale; if you think it's happening at GM, you're cracked. Period.

  9. #9 | Top
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Posts
    6,841
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
    Groans
    0
    Groaned 0 Times in 0 Posts

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Onceler View Post
    If I say "the Republicans are Nazis", do you take people to task for not trying to "refute" me?

    Socialism is gov't control of business & the means of production. That isn't happening in America on a large or even small scale; if you think it's happening at GM, you're cracked. Period.
    Amen.

    Obama isn't even a liberal, let alone a socialist.

  10. #10 | Top
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Las Cruces New Mexico
    Posts
    10,656
    Thanks
    260
    Thanked 1,630 Times in 874 Posts
    Groans
    8
    Groaned 39 Times in 33 Posts

    Default

    You know after seeing what happened in Dubai I wonder about Capitalism also.

  11. #11 | Top
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Posts
    47,970
    Thanks
    4,579
    Thanked 3,084 Times in 2,618 Posts
    Groans
    3,368
    Groaned 2,119 Times in 1,992 Posts

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Onceler View Post
    If I say "the Republicans are Nazis", do you take people to task for not trying to "refute" me?

    Socialism is gov't control of business & the means of production. That isn't happening in America on a large or even small scale; if you think it's happening at GM, you're cracked. Period.
    it is happening at GM....the government owns 60% of GM and forced out the last CEO....if you don't think that is control of the business and means of production you're cracked...

    healthcare is a socialist program, so is medicaid, and SS....how do you believe they are not socialist programs?

  12. #12 | Top
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Posts
    47,970
    Thanks
    4,579
    Thanked 3,084 Times in 2,618 Posts
    Groans
    3,368
    Groaned 2,119 Times in 1,992 Posts

    Default

    btw your piont about you calling people nazi's is a false analogy...if you wrote a post like dixie did and didn't just make a wisecrack.....then you'd have something....

  13. #13 | Top
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Posts
    61,320
    Thanks
    7,144
    Thanked 8,821 Times in 6,166 Posts
    Groans
    5,805
    Groaned 1,532 Times in 1,444 Posts
    Blog Entries
    3

    Default

    Argument from ignorance.

    When they taught me about socialism in elementary I found the concept intriguing. In middle school I was a Christian socialist who thought that we needed to return to prohibition. It was only in high school that I recongnized that socialist institutions were, at best, equal to certain capitalist institutions. I never lost faith in the necessity of a welfare state, however.

    And your diatribe about "HOW COULD PEOPLE NOT CHOOSE FREEDOM AND DEMOCRACY!?" just shows an insane amount of ignorance about anthropology, history, and political science.
    "Do not think that I came to bring peace... I did not come to bring peace, but a sword." - Matthew 10:34

  14. #14 | Top
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Posts
    24,050
    Thanks
    765
    Thanked 1,120 Times in 940 Posts
    Groans
    818
    Groaned 1,063 Times in 960 Posts

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Watermark View Post
    Argument from ignorance.

    When they taught me about socialism in elementary I found the concept intriguing. In middle school I was a Christian socialist who thought that we needed to return to prohibition. It was only in high school that I recongnized that socialist institutions were, at best, equal to certain capitalist institutions. I never lost faith in the necessity of a welfare state, however.

    And your diatribe about "HOW COULD PEOPLE NOT CHOOSE FREEDOM AND DEMOCRACY!?" just shows an insane amount of ignorance about anthropology, history, and political science.
    As I said, watching 40 years of the progressive movement in America has taught me a lot. I now see the reason people chose Socialism over freedom and liberty. It is actually rooted in greed... the desire for something more. You take for granted what is most precious, our freedom and liberty, and you seek to give this away to the State, so we can all be cared for and nurtured by the State. In your thinking, we will all be collectively better off, except for the wealthy, who will have to come back down to Earth. This absolves you from any personal responsibility, and enables you to be a dependent of the State, where no decisions ever have to be made by you... it's easy to be a sheep.

    The problem with Socialist models is, they don't ever work. They look good on paper, make sense in a philosophical viewpoint, but in practicality, just do not work. I believe the primary reason for this, is because Socialism stifles creativity and imagination, which kills motivation. It makes it virtually impossible to thrive and prosper, because all resources are controlled by the State, and subsequently, they reap all the benefits. The individual has no motivation to succeed, when they know the State is going to take it from them. At first, people work in good faith, thinking it will pay off in the end, but decades pass and the economic situation only worsens. The harder you work, the more the State demands and expects from you. Eventually your will to succeed is broken.

  15. #15 | Top
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Posts
    61,320
    Thanks
    7,144
    Thanked 8,821 Times in 6,166 Posts
    Groans
    5,805
    Groaned 1,532 Times in 1,444 Posts
    Blog Entries
    3

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Dixie View Post
    As I said, watching 40 years of the progressive movement in America has taught me a lot. I now see the reason people chose Socialism over freedom and liberty. It is actually rooted in greed... the desire for something more. You take for granted what is most precious, our freedom and liberty, and you seek to give this away to the State, so we can all be cared for and nurtured by the State. In your thinking, we will all be collectively better off, except for the wealthy, who will have to come back down to Earth. This absolves you from any personal responsibility, and enables you to be a dependent of the State, where no decisions ever have to be made by you... it's easy to be a sheep.

    The problem with Socialist models is, they don't ever work. They look good on paper, make sense in a philosophical viewpoint, but in practicality, just do not work. I believe the primary reason for this, is because Socialism stifles creativity and imagination, which kills motivation. It makes it virtually impossible to thrive and prosper, because all resources are controlled by the State, and subsequently, they reap all the benefits. The individual has no motivation to succeed, when they know the State is going to take it from them. At first, people work in good faith, thinking it will pay off in the end, but decades pass and the economic situation only worsens. The harder you work, the more the State demands and expects from you. Eventually your will to succeed is broken.
    I am not a marxist socialist, or even a post-marxist socialist. The modern "progressive" movement in American is actually a variety of conservatism. There are no liberal movements in America. None of what you are talking about applies to American "progressives".
    "Do not think that I came to bring peace... I did not come to bring peace, but a sword." - Matthew 10:34

Similar Threads

  1. Terrorism: Understanding the Threat to America
    By wordcreatorushtwf in forum Current Events Forum
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 10-23-2009, 08:56 AM
  2. more socialism
    By Don Quixote in forum Current Events Forum
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 10-07-2008, 03:52 PM
  3. socialism
    By theMAJORITY in forum Current Events Forum
    Replies: 55
    Last Post: 10-02-2008, 11:00 AM
  4. Understanding the Bank Bailout
    By Timshel in forum Current Events Forum
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 09-30-2008, 10:15 AM
  5. socialism
    By Don Quixote in forum Current Events Forum
    Replies: 22
    Last Post: 09-21-2008, 09:36 PM

Bookmarks

Posting Rules

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •