Reply With QuoteI don't know if he would, it took several years for him to finally get that same idea about Iraq.Originally Posted by lostsoul
The planet where the Commander-in-Chief received a recommendation, from the General HE put in charge, months ago and he continues to sit on the recommendation and twiddle his thumbs without making a decision. The planet where my best friend is in harm's way while the man charged with making decisions doesn't make one. The planet where 40,000 more troops make the likelihood of my best friend being killed less than without them.
What planet do you spend most of your time on? The one where all of the sudden Afghanistan isn't the good war? The just war? The Iraq War was a stupid, useless war that we had no business ever starting. But we went into Afghanistan with a purpose. Correct me if I am wrong, but hasn't it been our (the Democrats) contention all along that Afghanistan was the war we should be fighting. Now all of the sudden, its not? Why? Because it isn't Obama's mess? The man is the Commander-in-Chief. He needs to do his job. Give the General what he needs to win or bring our soldiers home. Period. His mess or not, its his job, his obligation to do something, anything. For months he has had the recommendation. Its well past time for him to shit or get off the pot.
Nicotine Deprived...
JPP Staff
I don't know if he would, it took several years for him to finally get that same idea about Iraq.
Excellence is an art won by training and habituation. We do not act rightly because we have virtue or excellence, but rather we have those because we have acted rightly. We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act but a habit.
- -- Aristotle
Believe nothing on the faith of traditions, even though they have been held in honor for many generations and in diverse places. Do not believe a thing because many people speak of it. Do not believe on the faith of the sages of the past. Do not believe what you yourself have imagined, persuading yourself that a God inspires you. Believe nothing on the sole authority of your masters and priests. After examination, believe what you yourself have tested and found to be reasonable, and conform your conduct thereto.
- -- The Buddha
Nicotine Deprived...
JPP Staff
I believe that he is following the polls rather than his brain, and because of that he appears to be delaying until it is too late. His own general said that it would fall apart in 12 months from his request if the CIC did nothing. How many months has it been now?
Excellence is an art won by training and habituation. We do not act rightly because we have virtue or excellence, but rather we have those because we have acted rightly. We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act but a habit.
- -- Aristotle
Believe nothing on the faith of traditions, even though they have been held in honor for many generations and in diverse places. Do not believe a thing because many people speak of it. Do not believe on the faith of the sages of the past. Do not believe what you yourself have imagined, persuading yourself that a God inspires you. Believe nothing on the sole authority of your masters and priests. After examination, believe what you yourself have tested and found to be reasonable, and conform your conduct thereto.
- -- The Buddha
I think by seeing the success of the surge in Iraq, even Bush would have sent additional troops. It doesn't take a genius (which Bush would never be confused for) to undertand that if there are enough troops to hold ground that has been been won, instead of winning and moving on, success is much more likely.
McChrystal's recommendation is dated August 30, 2009. When someone in the White House bothered to pick it up and read it is anyone's guess.
Last I heard the president did not have to take orders from generals.
He is looking at all the evidence and seeking the views of those who can widen his understanding of the possibilities.
I Believe Bush and team turned this into a mess which may not be workable for any good outcome.
What does a "win" in Afganistan look like?
Do you even know?
This is why I quit arguing politics...ignorance...
At what point did I say or imply that the President takes orders from generals? I said the General, that the President personally appointed to run the war, gave the President a recommendation. I also pointed out that President has spent way too much time considering and it is well past time to make a decision.
No, he has spent precious little time on this decision. It took him weeks to even read the recommendation. He met with the General once! He has now had three meeting with "those who can widen his understanding of the possibilities." THREE!!!! He campaigned for Corzine that many times. He has put it off and put it off and as a result, our service men and women are left hanging. For what? WHAT? Is it so important that he get his precious win on health care that he can't even fit our military into his day? Was Corzine so important that the President's time was better spent trying to get him re-elected that making a damn decision for our troops? Is fundraising for the 2010 elections more important than the lives of our troops? Damo is right, he is looking at polls and the result is that he is giving the finger to the military.
I understand your hatred for Bush, but are Bush and his failures any excuse for this President's failure to make a damned decision that everyone with a brain knows has to be made? Do you think that allowing Afghanistan to become another Vietnam is going to remind people just how incompetent Bush and team were and win you more elections? Bush has nothing to do with this. In case you haven't noticed, Obama is the President. Regardless of what came before, it is now his job. He is solely responsible now for what happens and doing nothing is not an option.
A win in Afghanistan looks like a country with a military strong enough to protect itself from all enemies, foreign and domestic; with a police force strong enough to serve and protect its citizens; and with a government in place of the people's own choosing.
You may be willing to watch our troops die while the President twiddles his thumbs, but I am not.
Do you know what ignorance and imcompetence looks like?
This. He was so sure that it would NOT take a surge that he sat on the idea and fired generals who suggested it would take more troops. That being said, what the fuck is Obama waiting for. If we need more troops then the amount there are not safe. Doing the thumb on prostate wiggle is not getting the job done.
With all due respect Desh, this is one of the stupidest questions asked by the antiwar crowd. In 1942, if asked, I don't know if Eisenhower would have known what a win in the war would like like either. He would have said defeat of the enemy and their total surrender. How the fuck Ike was going to get there, especially when North Africa was going so bad at times. What a win looks like in Afghanistan is the defeat of the Taliban and the installation of a stable, democratic government in Afghanistan. How do we get there? One leather boot step at a time.
Nicotine Deprived...
JPP Staff
This...
IMO, he is waiting for the Ds to pass health care before he does a half-measure that specifically was said by the general to be particularly ineffective. The half-measure would be an attempt to placate the center, and he is waiting because he fears reprisal in votes.
The general basically said that we should either commit or get out but half-measures would doom the mission. He also said the longer we wait the more difficult it is and that if we didn't get it under control within 12 months we would have likely lost. His feet dragging is endangering our troops.
Excellence is an art won by training and habituation. We do not act rightly because we have virtue or excellence, but rather we have those because we have acted rightly. We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act but a habit.
- -- Aristotle
Believe nothing on the faith of traditions, even though they have been held in honor for many generations and in diverse places. Do not believe a thing because many people speak of it. Do not believe on the faith of the sages of the past. Do not believe what you yourself have imagined, persuading yourself that a God inspires you. Believe nothing on the sole authority of your masters and priests. After examination, believe what you yourself have tested and found to be reasonable, and conform your conduct thereto.
- -- The Buddha
I wish you were wrong, but I don't think you are. As I said, I really don't want to argue the politics. To me it is personal. I've been told that life at a combat outpost is 80% boredom and 20% hell. Because our troops are spread so thin there are not enough lcmr operators for every unit. Lcmr operators have to move from fire fight to fire fight. So their life in Afghanistan is 20% boredom and 80% hell. Send the troops that the General asked for and provide these units the resources they need, namely enough troops that each unit has its own lcmr operator. I like SR's odds at 20% hell better than 80% hell.
Our troops are dying because our President is more interested in getting re-elected and his legacy than their lives. Don't believe me? Ask the familes of the 8 soldiers killed in Kamdesh. Ask them if their sons needed the extra troops when they died on October 3rd...with the General's recommendation sitting on the President's desk...and the President doing NOTHING but allowing them to die.
Shame on you Desh for not being outraged. Shame on everyone that tries to justify allowing our troops die because the President doesn't have the backbone to make a decision. Shame on anyone that blames it on Bush. He is no longer the President. It is no longer his job. Shame on our President and shame on our country.
And shame on me for not being outraged until I had a dog in the fight. I am embarrassed to have been so selfish.
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