Obama slaps the left in the face (detainee photo release)

[Cancel5]

So, this just further proves what we did was wrong. Now we can not own up to what we have done because it will make the world angry.

Just hide it and hope it goes away...just let the people who caused this kind of trouble for America just get away with it all.

[SR_]

So, this just further proves what we did was wrong. Now we can not own up to what we have done because it will make the world angry.

Just hide it and hope it goes away...just let the people who caused this kind of trouble for America just get away with it all.

You are aware of the abuses are you not?
You are aware of the investigations into the abuses are you not?
You have seen photos of the abuses have you not?
People were prosecuted and disciplined where they not?
Changes were instituted were they not?

At what point has something or is something being hid? At what point was there hope that it would all go away without action being taken?

No one is advocating that anyone "get away" with something. There is nothing to be "brought to light" that hasnt already had shined upon and fixed.

The point being is that we DID own up to it. People are in prison BECAUSE of it. And change were made BECAUSE of it.

What possible gain is there to be had by releasing 2000 additional photos of what you already know about, now?

SR

[apple0154]

You are aware of the abuses are you not?
You are aware of the investigations into the abuses are you not?
You have seen photos of the abuses have you not?
People were prosecuted and disciplined where they not?
Changes were instituted were they not?

At what point has something or is something being hid? At what point was there hope that it would all go away without action being taken?

No one is advocating that anyone "get away" with something. There is nothing to be "brought to light" that hasnt already had shined upon and fixed.

The point being is that we DID own up to it. People are in prison BECAUSE of it. And change were made BECAUSE of it.

What possible gain is there to be had by releasing 2000 additional photos of what you already know about, now?

SR

The gain is people tend to remember when they actually see something like the photos from Abu Ghraib. Anyone who has seen them remembers them.

It's the difference between being told about a car accident and actually seeing someone's head severed. One tends to remember the visual and that's what's needed.

It's needed because the average US citizen has to become so pissed off and outraged that it never, ever happens again. That's why Obama is concerned the pictures will cause anti US sentiment. That shows that just knowing is not the same as actually seeing.

If it was one isolated case, one sadistic prison guard, then I'd say they shouldn't be shown. But that's not the case. There was a policy of "enhanced interrogation". An acceptance of looking the other way.

Have you heard Cheney talk about water boarding during interviews? He had no problem with that, at all. It gives the impression he wouldn't have a problem with other things that most people would consider torture.

The things that happened and the frequency can not lead one to believe anything other than top people knew and either directed it or turned a blind eye to it. The people have to become outraged enough to ensure any successive government doesn't dare let that happen on their watch or they will be held responsible.

[Canceled2]

So, this just further proves what we did was wrong. Now we can not own up to what we have done because it will make the world angry.

Just hide it and hope it goes away...just let the people who caused this kind of trouble for America just get away with it all.

SHUT UP! You should really try engaging your fried remnants of a brain before opening your mouth. The photos in question are nothing more then additions to what have ALREADY been made public. They would serve NO other purpose other than to inflame. Obama gets that, but stupid jaw flapping idiots just can't seem to connect the obvious dots.

[Canceled2]

You are aware of the abuses are you not?
You are aware of the investigations into the abuses are you not?
You have seen photos of the abuses have you not?
People were prosecuted and disciplined where they not?
Changes were instituted were they not?

At what point has something or is something being hid? At what point was there hope that it would all go away without action being taken?

No one is advocating that anyone "get away" with something. There is nothing to be "brought to light" that hasnt already had shined upon and fixed.

The point being is that we DID own up to it. People are in prison BECAUSE of it. And change were made BECAUSE of it.

What possible gain is there to be had by releasing 2000 additional photos of what you already know about, now?

SR

Your points are too plain and clear for idiots to comprehend.

[SR_]

The gain is people tend to remember when they actually see something like the photos from Abu Ghraib. Anyone who has seen them remembers them.

It's the difference between being told about a car accident and actually seeing someone's head severed. One tends to remember the visual and that's what's needed.

It's needed because the average US citizen has to become so pissed off and outraged that it never, ever happens again. That's why Obama is concerned the pictures will cause anti US sentiment. That shows that just knowing is not the same as actually seeing.

If it was one isolated case, one sadistic prison guard, then I'd say they shouldn't be shown. But that's not the case. There was a policy of "enhanced interrogation". An acceptance of looking the other way.

Have you heard Cheney talk about water boarding during interviews? He had no problem with that, at all. It gives the impression he wouldn't have a problem with other things that most people would consider torture.

The things that happened and the frequency can not lead one to believe anything other than top people knew and either directed it or turned a blind eye to it. The people have to become outraged enough to ensure any successive government doesn't dare let that happen on their watch or they will be held responsible.

There is no outrage to effect changes that have not already occurred. This is to say that you are suggesting that enough has not been done. That there is a purposeful reason to affect change on either military protocol or US policies towards detainee treatment.

This however doesnt exist. There also isnt any type of environment political or otherwise to affect any NEW change. Clearly if these photos were made public.. NOTHING would be examined AGAIN in order to fix a system that has already been fixed. The average US citizen doesnt need to be re-exposed to a situation to get re-engraged about actions that have already been investigated, and prosecutions made. Clearly Americans addressed this issue not only in policy changes, but with elections..

The mere fact that you invoke the "cheney mention" shows that there is no real reason to release these photos in the face of the reasons i mentioned (which oddly enough you failed to address) in the hopes of another public flogging of your political opponents. The real audience that causes harm to YOUR military personnell arent Americans at all.

We all know that President Clinton had sexual relations with an intern. That happened several years ago. What would the benefit be to release videos of these actions taken from security cameras at the white house? Sure it would be great sensation and a re-ignition of the Clinton haters, but what other purpose would the American public be served in doing so?

The answer is none.

SR

[Dungheap]

I support the administrations efforts to keep the photos from being published because there is demonstrable negative effects with no positive benefits to publishing them.

The existence of the photos proved helpful in the investigations of those who perpetrated abuses on detainees. These investigations were not secret. The fact that the abuses occurred were not secret. The results of these investigations are not secret. The American people as well as the world are already aware of the abuses that occurred. Publishing photos several years after the fact, DURING on ongoing campaign in 2 theaters of war that serves no purpose to enlighten, educate, or incur change in the United States of America and does further damage to the efforts at hand (of which we have made progress), and endangers military personnel serving abroad as well as civilians on the homefront... isnt wise.

I dont imagine there is anything in these photos that you do not know about, nor is there any beneficial purpose to be served by releasing them.

If I was in the position of a senior military commander in either Afghanistan or Iraq I would want to continue to make progress, not absorb the consequences of 2000 photos of actions that happened several years ago to re-inflame a situation that is calming down. Especially in Iraq. There is no doubt that the Abu Grahib photos caused American Military casualties due to the recruiting and igniting effect that those photos gave to insurgent and terrorist groups in Iraq. Not to mention the effect in the region in regards to American standing. This was well documented, and I would argue, expected.

The breaking and making public of those photos shed light on a disturbing set of actions undertaken by some military members. It led to investigations and systematic changes in addition to successful prosecutions of those involved. This was made public and positive changes occurred. These latest rounds of photos are evidence of those actions taken back then, we have since made progress in keeping these incidents from happening. Releasing these photos now has none of the previous effect of the original Abu Grahib photos.

With nothing to gain and with so much to lose, especially with the national security and the security of our deployed Military personnel at stake, there really are no reasons to advocate for their release. Im hoping that the President is successful in this effort.

SR

"Demonstrable" doesn't mean what you seem to think it means.

[SR_]

"Demonstrable" doesn't mean what you seem to think it means.

hhmm... well... I guess nothing has changed since I was last around. Dunheap still reverts to acting like a retard in the face of superior arguments and facts.

oh well...

btw..

Demonstrable:
1. capable of being demonstrated or proved.
2. clearly evident; obvious: a demonstrable lack of concern for the general welfare.


I support the administrations efforts to keep the photos from being published because there is clearly evident and obvious negative effects that are easily capable of being demonstrated or proven with no positive benefits to publishing them.


I think it clearly means what I meant for it to mean... because thats the definition of it. Now YOU may be confused on what it means, im really not sure.

SR

[apple0154]

SHUT UP! You should really try engaging your fried remnants of a brain before opening your mouth. The photos in question are nothing more then additions to what have ALREADY been made public. They would serve NO other purpose other than to inflame. Obama gets that, but stupid jaw flapping idiots just can't seem to connect the obvious dots.

That's the whole point, Ice Dancer. To inflame. To inflame every citizen so the next time a government talks about "enhanced interrogation" or "stress positions" or other quaint euphemisms they'll know they're referring to actions bordering on torture.

Let's call it what it is. Let the people fully understand. Let them see the pictures so they don't forget.

Just like seeing the coffins arriving from overseas. Let's rub everyones proverbial nose in pictures of war. Let's get a close-up of those blown off arms and legs so the next time some sick fvck like Cheney gets elected and says something like "war was an option we chose" the citizens will swarm the White House like locusts.

Let the people see! They have a right to know. They have an obligation to know. If more people got inflamed we just might end up in a more civilized world.

Re: SR's post #36:

There is no outrage to effect changes that have not already occurred.

Maybe not but the point is to burn those pictures into people's memory because people tend to forget. There will be another war-mongering Cheney clone in the future because there always has been and there always will be.

It's not about Cheney. It's about war. It's the how 50,000 young men and women died during Viet Nam and now we have another drag out situation.

Maybe if we had a few more pictures from Viet Nam we wouldn't be where we are today. Maybe if the horrors of war were broadcast more frequently on TV or once a month every newspaper had a blown apart body on the front page we just might remember.

The pictures may inflame the enemy today but if they prevent another war in the future just think of the lives saved.

[SR_]

Maybe not but the point is to burn those pictures into people's memory because people tend to forget. There will be another war-mongering Cheney clone in the future because there always has been and there always will be.

It's not about Cheney. It's about war. It's the how 50,000 young men and women died during Viet Nam and now we have another drag out situation.

Maybe if we had a few more pictures from Viet Nam we wouldn't be where we are today. Maybe if the horrors of war were broadcast more frequently on TV or once a month every newspaper had a blown apart body on the front page we just might remember.

The pictures may inflame the enemy today but if they prevent another war in the future just think of the lives saved.

Images of detainee abuse dont prevent wars. This is illogical.

We currently HAVE men and women in uniform deployed to war zones, to suggest that we need to re-inflame a current situation, one that we have made progress in, putting American lives in danger today, in the fanciful HOPES that for whatever reason detainee photos might "stop" a war in 2050 is outrageous.

This type of thinking is neither intellectual or even almost realistic.

SR

[Dungheap]

hhmm... well... I guess nothing has changed since I was last around. Dunheap still reverts to acting like a retard in the face of superior arguments and facts.

oh well...

btw..

Demonstrable:
1. capable of being demonstrated or proved.
2. clearly evident; obvious: a demonstrable lack of concern for the general welfare.


I support the administrations efforts to keep the photos from being published because there is clearly evident and obvious negative effects that are easily capable of being demonstrated or proven with no positive benefits to publishing them.


I think it clearly means what I meant for it to mean... because thats the definition of it. Now YOU may be confused on what it means, im really not sure.

SR

You seem to think that the particular argument you are trotting out hasn't been tried before and that this is some new strategy for keeping the pictures from being disclosed. It isn't. It has been rejected by both the U.S. District Court (which opinion I previously linked to) and the Court of Appeals for the Second Circuit. In fact, the DoJ previously concluded that the argument was horseshit and that there was no basis for continuing to appeal the decision and asserting it further.

The problem with the argument is that it is not capable of being demonstrated or proved. It is not clearly evident. It is not obvious.

[Canceled2]

That's the whole point, Ice Dancer. To inflame. To inflame every citizen so the next time a government talks about "enhanced interrogation" or "stress positions" or other quaint euphemisms they'll know they're referring to actions bordering on torture.

Let's call it what it is. Let the people fully understand. Let them see the pictures so they don't forget.

Just like seeing the coffins arriving from overseas. Let's rub everyones proverbial nose in pictures of war. Let's get a close-up of those blown off arms and legs so the next time some sick fvck like Cheney gets elected and says something like "war was an option we chose" the citizens will swarm the White House like locusts.

Let the people see! They have a right to know. They have an obligation to know. If more people got inflamed we just might end up in a more civilized world.

Re: SR's post #36:

Maybe not but the point is to burn those pictures into people's memory because people tend to forget. There will be another war-mongering Cheney clone in the future because there always has been and there always will be.

It's not about Cheney. It's about war. It's the how 50,000 young men and women died during Viet Nam and now we have another drag out situation.

Maybe if we had a few more pictures from Viet Nam we wouldn't be where we are today. Maybe if the horrors of war were broadcast more frequently on TV or once a month every newspaper had a blown apart body on the front page we just might remember.

The pictures may inflame the enemy today but if they prevent another war in the future just think of the lives saved.

I have no problems showing the abuses. They were ALREADY shown. It CAN be shown that the first time around they incited violence that cost American soldiers and Iraqi civillian lives in Iraq. If they are going to be trotted out again then picture for picture needs to be put up against one another: Like the bloodied bodies of the 9/11 victims and the aftermath of terrorist car bombs. Let's just keep every single person reminded of the abuses and slaughter...one point however is that we have a lot more graphic photos of maimed and slaughtered Americans and terrorist inflicted Iraqi deaths then there are of the naked guys standing on a bucket photos

[apple0154]

Maybe not but the point is to burn those pictures into people's memory because people tend to forget. There will be another war-mongering Cheney clone in the future because there always has been and there always will be.

It's not about Cheney. It's about war. It's the how 50,000 young men and women died during Viet Nam and now we have another drag out situation.

Maybe if we had a few more pictures from Viet Nam we wouldn't be where we are today. Maybe if the horrors of war were broadcast more frequently on TV or once a month every newspaper had a blown apart body on the front page we just might remember.

The pictures may inflame the enemy today but if they prevent another war in the future just think of the lives saved.

Images of detainee abuse dont prevent wars. This is illogical.

We currently HAVE men and women in uniform deployed to war zones, to suggest that we need to re-inflame a current situation, one that we have made progress in, putting American lives in danger today, in the fanciful HOPES that for whatever reason detainee photos might "stop" a war in 2050 is outrageous.

This type of thinking is neither intellectual or even almost realistic.

SR

It's better than to just keep doing what we have been, generation after generation, sending our youth to the slaughter.

As for 2050 you certainly are optimistic if you think that will be the date of the next war. Try a year or two from now. Maybe Iran or Syria or North Korea or God knows where.

At least Obama has started on the right path by including the cost of the war with other expenses instead of pretending it's not a waste of people's taxes. Now we have to get the sights of war in the general population. It's time people saw the reality.

[SR_]

You seem to think that the particular argument you are trotting out hasn't been tried before and that this is some new strategy for keeping the pictures from being disclosed. It isn't. It has been rejected by both the U.S. District Court (which opinion I previously linked to) and the Court of Appeals for the Second Circuit. In fact, the DoJ previously concluded that the argument was horseshit and that there was no basis for continuing to appeal the decision and asserting it further.

The problem with the argument is that it is not capable of being demonstrated or proved. It is not clearly evident. It is not obvious.

I didnt say that my particular argument is going to be tried before any judicial body. You asked me why I supported the administration not releasing the photographs. I answered. Your rebuttal was "horseshit" and showing your ass about the definition of demonstrable. lol

My argument is entirely capable of being demonstrated and proven. There were a great number of captured insurgents that spoke directly TOO the Abu Grahib abuse photos as their cause célèbre. There is fact supporting dramatic increases in violence due to those photos being made public back then. And I understand why, and those photos should have been released, and the results were entirely expected.

Are you really naive enough to think that those images did not incite acts of violence against US troops, that they were not used as a rallying cry for otherwise non-violent participants who joined a violent group?

Its not some random conjecture to suggest that the original Abu Grahib photos had a clearly demonstrable effect in Iraq and in the rest of the muslim world, its well documented. It is historical fact. Did we deserve it? Clearly if youre going to treat muslim detainee's in that fashion then yes you deserve the consequences in the general muslim public.

Are you really going to argue that these photos would not cause us more devastation from retribution? And for what gain?

Any other definitions you want to debate about? lol (maybe try harder this time, maybe something not so obvious that you like such a fool, perhaps?)

SR

[apple0154]

I have no problems showing the abuses. They were ALREADY shown. It CAN be shown that the first time around they incited violence that cost American soldiers and Iraqi civillian lives in Iraq. If they are going to be trotted out again then picture for picture needs to be put up against one another: Like the bloodied bodies of the 9/11 victims and the aftermath of terrorist car bombs. Let's just keep every single person reminded of the abuses and slaughter...one point however is that we have a lot more graphic photos of maimed and slaughtered Americans and terrorist inflicted Iraqi deaths then there are of the naked guys standing on a bucket photos

I have no problem with that. Let's show it all. But let's be sure we make it clear the prisoners who were tortured were not the ones responsible for 911. When showing the prisoners also show why they are prisoners. Show why they are there. What are they being charged with. And let's not forget the ones who were held and underwent "enhanced interrogation" and then told, "Oops, wrong guy. You can go now."

I'm game to show it all. Let the people see what their government has done and to whom.