Wicked Witch

[evince]

Care she was one fo the people you are accusing of breaking these rules.

Why did Hillary vote against the charter herself if she felt it was breaking the rules?


I dont dislike Hillary personally, I dislike her actions and I also think she is not the right person to solve our problems right now because she ows too many favors and took too much lobby money. Obama has the little guy donations streaming in. The little guy feels hope that they are part of the system and can make this country better for the firrst time in many years. Do you understand what that will men for this country Care.


It is so fun to have something to discuss with you, its great to have you back here giving it to us all. Its a good thing there is differing oppinions with in the party that get hashed out. Its the healthist thing for our party and our country. It makes us stronger and better.

[Care4all]

I can not believe that they will even consider using a poll instead of the actual vote to determine the citizen's vote that actually voted........

THAT IS BREAKING OUR CHARTER...that is illegal and they can not do that just like they couldn't take all of the delegate votes away from Michigan and Florida and they BETTER NOT mess with the private votes of citizens that casted an actual vote, and change it to some poll results.....THAT IS ABSURD and it is ILLEGAL to change a person's vote, that casted a vote

[Care4all]

Care she was one fo the people you are accusing of breaking these rules.

Why did Hillary vote against the charter herself if she felt it was breaking the rules?

HILLARY DID NOT VOTE FOR IT HERSELF Desh, for goodness sakes....why did you say Hillary casted a vote? She nor Obama nor Edwards nor any of the Candidates casted a vote for it...so what do you mean?

[Care4all]

Desh, how can you be taking the side of disenfranchisement of the voters that voted?

Please explain this COMPLETE AND OPPOSITE STANCE that you have taken for 4 years...

Even if I were an Obama supporter, I would always take the citizen and his vote as SACRED, and OVER AND ABOVE a bureacracy that was showing arrogance and power...

[evince]

Desh, how can you be taking the side of disenfranchisement of the voters that voted?

Please explain this COMPLETE AND OPPOSITE STANCE that you have taken for 4 years...

Even if I were an Obama supporter, I would always take the citizen and his vote as SACRED, and OVER AND ABOVE a bureacracy that was showing arrogance and power...

I did on another thread Ill go get it.

[evince]

I do want every vote to count. I want every person in Mi and FLs vote to count.

The thing is I want everyone who did not go vote that day because they were told that it would not be considered a vote to be able to have their vote now count too.

The only way to do this is to revote both states.

If we can not revote both states then we have to give wieght to the people who did not vote because they were told it was not really a vote.

How do you do this?

You give some of the votes to the guy who is still also in the race besides Hillary and that is Obama.

Its either that or do what the party said it would do and what Clinton and Obama signed and agreed to and not count any of these votes.

They are voting for who might take the position and not who WILL take the position so it does not matter as much as FL 2000 election. These people in FL and MI still have a chance to vote for president in the end dont they?

They will still be able to pick democratic principles over republican principles if it really is about helping fix the country. If its just about feeling let down that your first choice wasnt the one in the end then allowing these votes to take full wieght disenfranchises the voters who did not go to the polls because they were informed enough to know it wouldnt matter.

I think the voters who voted anyway may have had a large percent of democratic voters who were yet to get fully informed on the election. They voted because they thought it would count because they were ill informed. The better informed voter stayed home.

[Don Quixote]

Do you really DQ? Good for you. I don't, but I'm way over getting angry about Hillary or her supporters. Whatever happens, happens. I guess it's things like "hundred hussy march" and wicked witch imagery that "liberal" men find so amusing, which have just made me feel like; whatever. At this point? If Hillary is what they get rammed up their butts? Man, do they have that coming. I prefer Obama, by far, but....whatever.

da

actually there is little difference between their political positions

since i live in ca, which usually goes dem, i will not vote for either of them but for a third party candidate

i prefer hc over bo but not by much

i think i could live with either of them but not mc

however, these days i just hold my nose and vote for the lessor evil

my days of idealism have long passed and have voted for a candidate for a long time...just against

i think the best candidates for the dems are either bo and hc or hc and bo as pres/vp - but i do not think it will happen as they do not seem to get along

however, i would prefer bc as president's spouse over michele

take care

[Care4all]

I do want every vote to count. I want every person in Mi and FLs vote to count.

The thing is I want everyone who did not go vote that day because they were told that it would not be considered a vote to be able to have their vote now count too.

The only way to do this is to revote both states.

If we can not revote both states then we have to give wieght to the people who did not vote because they were told it was not really a vote.

How do you do this?

You give some of the votes to the guy who is still also in the race besides Hillary and that is Obama.

Its either that or do what the party said it would do and what Clinton and Obama signed and agreed to and not count any of these votes.

They are voting for who might take the position and not who WILL take the position so it does not matter as much as FL 2000 election. These people in FL and MI still have a chance to vote for president in the end dont they?

They will still be able to pick democratic principles over republican principles if it really is about helping fix the country. If its just about feeling let down that your first choice wasnt the one in the end then allowing these votes to take full wieght disenfranchises the voters who did not go to the polls because they were informed enough to know it wouldnt matter.

I think the voters who voted anyway may have had a large percent of democratic voters who were yet to get fully informed on the election. They voted because they thought it would count because they were ill informed. The better informed voter stayed home.

Desh
WHERE in the world did you get that line that they were told their vote did not count....

BY WHO?

They were told that their votes were very important and that they must come out and vote, each party spent MILIONS OF DOLLARS telling them why it was important to come out and vote...florida nearly doubled the attendance on their previous election when including absentee votes for goodness sakes...

ANYONE THAT WAS GOING TO VOTE, VOTED in Florida because they had a huge tax cut for property on the ballot along with the ads the governor their party their senators their newspapers telling them to vote?

Michigan had a special booklet that went out to all democrats explaining the importance of the vote?????????

Where do YOU get this stuff?

so you want to PENALIZE THE PEOPLE THAT VOTED by diminishing their vote with voters that never did cast a vote..........?

you say in your post, what's the big deal, they will get their full vote for president...SO WHAT IS THE BIG DEAL for you to have to MAKE UP OUT OF THE BLUE, and discern what people would have done if they had gone out to vote, and TAKE AWAY the votes that were ACTUALLY CASTED away from the person that they casted their vote for....? The DNC is the most elitist , unjust, arrogant oranization that i have ever seen in action.........

They did not compromising today...the rule was always 1/2 the delegates if sanctioned, they broke the DNC's constitution. Charter to make the sanction to NO DELEGATES SEATED....there arrogance did this...their love for power...and control...Next presidential election in florida and michigan are going to be on the same dates and they will FOREVER BE DISENFRANCHISED, UNLESS the gosh darn DNC negotiates with them or changes their own rules....

Can you imagine every presidential race onward only having the citizens of florida like my parents and sis and nephew and wife all only being worth HALF A VOTE...hey THAT'S less than even slaves of past history....

good job DNC, Good job at being leaders!

I am sorry but that my friend is nothing less than highway robbery of those that casted their votes and cheating Desh....

If Howard Dean is not fired, i will burn my membership to the DNC...what was done with this election was equal to Gore...only this time the Dems did it to dems...

THEY BROKE Michigan Primary rules to do what they did today...

your buddy CHOSE for ONLY POLITICAL POSTURING WITH IOWA, to TAKE HIS NAME OFF OF MICHIGAN'S BALLOT...that was not the fault of the voters or the DNC, that was his own fault and the voters were told explicitly how to handle their vote if they wanted him...

They took 4 delegates away from Hillary that she had earned by people casting their vote, pulling the lever for her and gave them to Obama for people that never casted a vote Desh and he got edward's delegates too?

I don;t know what fairness means to you anymore Desh?

Care

[blackascoal]

Care, you've gotta be one of the most uninformed people on this board .. and you're either intellectually lazy or you don't have the capacity to research.

"WHERE in the world did you get that line that they were told their vote did not count...."

If you paid ANY attention to the precedings yesterday, surely you heard the Michigan delegation say that Michigan voters were told their votes didn't count .. and you continue to purposefully ignore the FACT that Hillary said herself that Michigan and Florida primaries wouldn't count.

.. AND her own representative at the meeting, Former Michigan Gov. Jim Blanchard, said the voters were told the election would not count .. AND Michigan US SEnator Carl Levin called it "a flawed primary."

Additionally, this is also reflected in the numbers as both Michigan and Florida would have had much larger numbers at the polls if the election counted.

"It makes sense that Michigan would suffer more from this problem, as Barack Obama and John Edwards had both taken their names off the ballot in recognition that the state wouldn't count, while Clinton kept her name in the race. As a result, many Obama and Edwards supporters would have failed to show up just to vote "Uncommitted" in a race that they were told wouldn't matter under the rules, and even some Clinton supporters wouldn't have viewed it as worth the time and effort.

Indeed, the Michigan turnout wasn't even halfway decent by the standards of state-level Michigan primaries. The 2002 primary for governor saw over 400,000 more people turn out than this year's presidential primary, and the second and third-place finishers had almost as many votes combined as this year's presidential race had in total."
http://tpmelectioncentral.talkingpoi.../primaries.php

AND the compromises that were reached were both put forward by the Michigan and Florida delegations.

Your every argument is wrong, misinformed, and often just downright silly.

You RUN AWAY from facts and truth.

[evince]

Care is actually very informed she is being mislead by the Clinton campaign.

If indeed Clinton had something so dark about Obama that it would cause him to be unelectable she would have AND SHOULD HAVE informed the voters of it.

Those who were closely following the progress of the democratic primaries would have realized that voting that day was not going to be recognized. Blame the people who forced these primariy dates on the people of Mi and FL.

Look deeping into what went on if FL that lead to this. The FL republicans created this mess by controling the FL state gov. They knew they were going to cause problems for FL democrats and that nothing would happen to the republican voters in their state because of it.

[evince]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080601/...CF8FvsA6ms0NUE

Clinton's camp insisted Obama shouldn't get any pledged delegates in Michigan since he chose not to put his name on the ballot, and she should get 73 pledged delegates with 55 uncommitted. Obama's team insisted the only fair solution was to split the pledged delegates in half between the two campaigns, with 64 each.

The committee agreed on a compromise offered by the Michigan Democratic Party that would split the difference, allowing Clinton to take 69 delegates and Obama 59. Each delegate would get half a vote at the convention, according to the deal.

The deal passed 19-8. Thirteen members of the committee had endorsed Clinton for president, so she wasn't even able to keep her supporters together.

Allan Katz, a Rules Committee member and Obama supporter, said the Obama campaign had enough votes on the committee to support the campaign's proposal to split the delegates 50-50 in Michigan. Ultimately, the campaign agreed instead to support the compromise negotiated by the Michigan Democratic Party as a way to resolve the matter.

"The ironic thing is Obama had the majority of that committee," Katz said. "The Obama campaign wants to move on and compromise. We did not muscle our way through it. It was a wise decision from a well run and wise campaign that will reverberate."

[evince]

http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/05/...f=rss_politics

the 30 who made the decision.

[blackascoal]

Care is actually very informed she is being mislead by the Clinton campaign.

If indeed Clinton had something so dark about Obama that it would cause him to be unelectable she would have AND SHOULD HAVE informed the voters of it.

Those who were closely following the progress of the democratic primaries would have realized that voting that day was not going to be recognized. Blame the people who forced these primariy dates on the people of Mi and FL.

Look deeping into what went on if FL that lead to this. The FL republicans created this mess by controling the FL state gov. They knew they were going to cause problems for FL democrats and that nothing would happen to the republican voters in their state because of it.

I agree with you about Florida republicans, but it was Michigan DEMOCRATS who caused their own problems.

I'm from Michigan and I know many there were angry at their own legislature for putting them in that position and wondered why the state was spending so much money on a primary that didn't even count. They didn't participate and the numbers prove that.

It's not rocket science to know or to find out any of this widely-known information. Care isn't interested in any facts, truth, or information that interferes with her emotional attachment to Hillary .. and I told you that she was not going to address the facts in the other thread.

My problem with her isn't personal, I don't know her .. but I do have problems with the disinformation she SCREAMS, no differently than I would have if a right-winger was screaming disinformation and refused to deal with facts.

[blackascoal]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080601/...CF8FvsA6ms0NUE

Clinton's camp insisted Obama shouldn't get any pledged delegates in Michigan since he chose not to put his name on the ballot, and she should get 73 pledged delegates with 55 uncommitted. Obama's team insisted the only fair solution was to split the pledged delegates in half between the two campaigns, with 64 each.

The committee agreed on a compromise offered by the Michigan Democratic Party that would split the difference, allowing Clinton to take 69 delegates and Obama 59. Each delegate would get half a vote at the convention, according to the deal.

The deal passed 19-8. Thirteen members of the committee had endorsed Clinton for president, so she wasn't even able to keep her supporters together.

Allan Katz, a Rules Committee member and Obama supporter, said the Obama campaign had enough votes on the committee to support the campaign's proposal to split the delegates 50-50 in Michigan. Ultimately, the campaign agreed instead to support the compromise negotiated by the Michigan Democratic Party as a way to resolve the matter.

"The ironic thing is Obama had the majority of that committee," Katz said. "The Obama campaign wants to move on and compromise. We did not muscle our way through it. It was a wise decision from a well run and wise campaign that will reverberate."

It proves that Obama has not only won the outside game of politics, but he's also won the inside game.

The Clinton era of control of the Democratic Party is over .. and the country will be better off for it.

[evince]

I agree with you BAC.

My history with Care is years long and she has in every time other than this one been a voice of reason and her name has been reflected in her every post.

She truely is one of my favorite people on the planet.

I have to admitt Im a little distressed by her devotion to Hillary Clinton in light of this last year.