Dutch Uncle
* Tertia Optio * Defend the Constitution
The indigenous Americans were human too so they warred on their neighbors just like humans elsewhere.
Happy Indigenous People's Day!
- Thread starter PoliTalker
- Start date
The indigenous Americans were human too so they warred on their neighbors just like humans elsewhere.
ThatOwlWoman
Not Nice
But according to the ManifestDestiny worshipers like Sister Stench, the fact that they had wars, sacrifice, burned up trees, drove animals over cliffs, etc. means that it was okay to genocide them.
For sure, I am aware there were Spanish colonies in Carribean, Peru, Mexico in the 1500s
Vikings are just an interesting sidebar
Dutch Uncle
* Tertia Optio * Defend the Constitution
Dutch Uncle
* Tertia Optio * Defend the Constitution
It surprised me to see how long it took to start colonising.
How far inland … up or down a river did the Vikings come? This is 25 minutes from where I live and has always interested me. It’s not settled archeological science but is interesting.
https://www.atlasobscura.com/places/heavener-runestone
cancel2 2022
Canceled
Madwitch really is a nasty old woman, truly hateful.
Large scale colonization in Central and South America was not really economically viable until the discovery of gold and silver mines, primarily in Peru and Mexico.
Large scale colonization of the Carribean was not really economically viable until they discovered how to cultivate and market sugar cane.
Economically viable large scale colonization in the British North American colonies was not really profitable until they discovered how to cultivate tobacco and sell it to Europe.
Large scale French colonization of Canada never happened because the fur trade economy was really only on a subsistence level
I do not know about the Icelandic and Greenland Vikings, but the Swedish Varangian Vikings could travel the rivers of Russia all the way from the Baltic Sea down to the Black Sea, occasionally portaging their boats overland between different river systems.
That is literally hundreds of kilometers of transit on inland waterways.
Again. Whatever. People come, people go, civilizations appear, then disappear. Land is land. Been going on for thousands of years. Big deal.
Minister of Truth
Practically Perfect
Oh, you definitely do not want sailors in your neighbourhood!
You are ignoring the point that European colonization was inevitable, but the way it went down was not inevitable.
There is no religion, no sacred scripture, no Holy book which advocates cruelty, cheating, lying.
The indigenous people themselves could notice differences in the way the Europeans treated them.
The Spanish infamously tended to be the cruelest.
The native tribes frequently favored the British over the American colonists in the Revolution because they perceived that the British would treat them more equitably.
On balance, the French were perceived by native people to be relatively fair and equitable in their dealings with indigenous inhabitants.
Dutch Uncle
* Tertia Optio * Defend the Constitution
Do you agree it's been going on for over 20,000 years in the Americas and over 200,000 years in Africa/ME/Mediterranean/Asia/Europe?
Dutch Uncle
* Tertia Optio * Defend the Constitution
Although I'm not sure that's what she's saying, I completely agree with what you are saying about the differences. That said, it's more of an indication of Human Nature rather than European behavior. Human beings can be real assholes.
Comanches tortured their captive enemies to death for entertainment. Medieval Euros did the same. The Comanches used ant hills and a campfire at the victim's feet for their fun. The Euros had thumbscrews, the Iron Maiden and other fancy devices for theirs. Human beings can be very, very cruel.
ThatOwlWoman
Not Nice
Yes, no big deal -- until it's you that loses everything. Your empathy is underwhelming. lol
ThatOwlWoman
Not Nice
Agree with the last. But what's going on here is some of the Reichwingers are using the fact that *some* natives were cruel as a rationale for their extermination. Oddly enough though, I haven't heard anyone calling to exterminate Catholics because of the Inquisition, have you?
Dutch Uncle
* Tertia Optio * Defend the Constitution
If true, that's a fucked up conclusion. Anyone who says genocide is the the appropriate response for anyone defending their land is not a Christian. They're just a cruel, evil asshole.
I have never intentionally sugar coated that slavery and ritual sacrifice were practiced by some indigenous cultures.
That is a separate issue from how the Europeans choose to treat native peoples. Europeans had overwhelming military superiority and had the choice to dictate terms.
"Might makes right" was supposed to go out of fashion with the end of Greco-Roman pagan culture and the rise of Christendom. Christianity supposedly was a harbinger of a new kind of morality.
If the Indians had sent fleets over to Europe and cheated, lied, and decieved their way into taking over Europe, my reaction would be exactly the same.
I do not expect the European colonizers to have been boy scouts. But the fact we know that the French and the Spanish treated native peoples in substantially different ways means that cruelty and lying was not the only option open to Europeans
PoliTalker
Diversity Makes Greatness
Hello leaningright,
I don't see it as a problem. But then I have dropped my support for Columbus Day. I once celebrated that, but I no longer do. I definitely felt that I was lied to by our education system. I was taught something which was not true. Columbus neither discovered America nor was the first European here. And it was not done as a good thing. It was a mistake which was then exploited. They set out to establish a new trade route. That was fair enough as long as the intent was to conduct fair trade (debatable.) The real problem was that Columbus was a jerk. He was a ruthless leader who did not treat people well or fairly. And what came after the discovery was nothing short of barbaric. It is nothing to be celebrated.
Hopefully and ideally, in time, people will lose interest in celebrating Columbus. Certainly the whole truth about him should now be taught in our education system. Give it a generation or two and that should do it for interest in celebrating Columbus. I am now ashamed that I ever did celebrate him. I am ever so happy to have something I can gladly celebrate on that day, now.
I think President Biden did a great job of handling this delicate situation. He has left Columbus Day in place for those who wish to continue to believe in that concept, but the new way has been made official, and now we can enter a transition period until nobody else celebrates Columbus Day any more because it is a disgrace to do so.
The country needs time to make a change like this.
I don't see it as a problem. But then I have dropped my support for Columbus Day. I once celebrated that, but I no longer do. I definitely felt that I was lied to by our education system. I was taught something which was not true. Columbus neither discovered America nor was the first European here. And it was not done as a good thing. It was a mistake which was then exploited. They set out to establish a new trade route. That was fair enough as long as the intent was to conduct fair trade (debatable.) The real problem was that Columbus was a jerk. He was a ruthless leader who did not treat people well or fairly. And what came after the discovery was nothing short of barbaric. It is nothing to be celebrated.
Hopefully and ideally, in time, people will lose interest in celebrating Columbus. Certainly the whole truth about him should now be taught in our education system. Give it a generation or two and that should do it for interest in celebrating Columbus. I am now ashamed that I ever did celebrate him. I am ever so happy to have something I can gladly celebrate on that day, now.
I think President Biden did a great job of handling this delicate situation. He has left Columbus Day in place for those who wish to continue to believe in that concept, but the new way has been made official, and now we can enter a transition period until nobody else celebrates Columbus Day any more because it is a disgrace to do so.
The country needs time to make a change like this.