Michigan Rs email show gerrymandering plans

Cypress said:
Calfornia passed a referendum establishing a citizen's redistricting commission, which takes the matter out of the hands of the legislature, and is at least an attempt to make re-districting reasonably fair and non-partisan.

So, while California is trying to improve democracy, Michigan Republicans (and Republicans elsewhere) are trying to subvert democracy.
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We did it kicking and screaming. Arnold put it on the ballot in 2005 and it got voted down. Democrats didn't want to give up their control to gerrymander. So Democrats hold no high moral ground here.
 
One thing not mentioned here is the geographic separation that has been occurring between Democrats and Republicans in where they live. Democrats just pack urban areas. Where I live Pelosi gets over 80% of the vote. I think Barbara Lee is similar in Oakland. And this is with a lot of people voting. But it's still the same seat whether they win with 51% of the vote or over 80%. It's why some liberal publications have said if liberals really want to make a difference then move off the coast and into middle America where your vote would count.


Now this doesn't change the fact that gerrymandering occurs. But people are also choosing to self gerrymander.
 
cawacko said:
One thing not mentioned here is the geographic separation that has been occurring between Democrats and Republicans in where they live. Democrats just pack urban areas. Where I live Pelosi gets over 80% of the vote. I think Barbara Lee is similar in Oakland. And this is with a lot of people voting. But it's still the same seat whether they win with 51% of the vote or over 80%. It's why some liberal publications have said if liberals really want to make a difference then move off the coast and into middle America where your vote would count.


Now this doesn't change the fact that gerrymandering occurs. But people are also choosing to self gerrymander.
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No, that would only work if the lines drawn remained stable. You're ignoring all the algorithms and AI that goes into fixing elections now.
 
cawacko said:
One thing not mentioned here is the geographic separation that has been occurring between Democrats and Republicans in where they live. Democrats just pack urban areas. Where I live Pelosi gets over 80% of the vote. I think Barbara Lee is similar in Oakland. And this is with a lot of people voting. But it's still the same seat whether they win with 51% of the vote or over 80%. It's why some liberal publications have said if liberals really want to make a difference then move off the coast and into middle America where your vote would count.


Now this doesn't change the fact that gerrymandering occurs. But people are also choosing to self gerrymander.
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that is not gerrymandering asshole


that is called freedom to live where you want
 
cawacko said:
Where does the VRA fit into this equation in 2018?
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You want to discuss 2018? Why?

"If the goal is to eliminate politicians and their bias from the process (and that's a worthy goal) and have algorithms do it, how can it co-exist with VRA laws?"

Not sure how you envision "eliminating politicians and their bias from the process" or whether in fact that IS "a worthy goal".
 
evince said:
that is not gerrymandering asshole


that is called freedom to live where you want
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... without healthcare, education or clean water for all. Compete amongst yourselves as we redistribute societal wealth and resources to the entitled aristocracy.
 
Fentoine Lum said:
You want to discuss 2018? Why?

"If the goal is to eliminate politicians and their bias from the process (and that's a worthy goal) and have algorithms do it, how can it co-exist with VRA laws?"

Not sure how you envision "eliminating politicians and their bias from the process" or whether in fact that IS "a worthy goal".
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Why do I want to talk about the present? I would think it obvious but maybe not.

As to your next comment I'm missing something because the whole discussion is about eliminating politicians from the process.
 
Yes Desh, i'm an asshole because people choose to gerrymander themselves politically based on where they live. I appreciate you thinking I have so much power that I can dictate where people live but alas that is not the case.
 
cawacko said:
Yes Desh, i'm an asshole because people choose to gerrymander themselves politically based on where they live. I appreciate you thinking I have so much power that I can dictate where people live but alas that is not the case.
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maybe you better look up the word Gerrymandering you fucking idiot


living where they choose is NOT gerrymandering you fucking lying assed sociopath
 
cawacko said:
Why do I want to talk about the present? I would think it obvious but maybe not.

As to your next comment I'm missing something because the whole discussion is about eliminating politicians from the process.
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NO ITS NOT






its ABOUT your fucking party hating Democracy and keeping the people from their REAL choice
 
cawacko said:
We did it kicking and screaming. Arnold put it on the ballot in 2005 and it got voted down. Democrats didn't want to give up their control to gerrymander. So Democrats hold no high moral ground here.
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I do not think I even mentioned the Democratic party.
I believe I said that California voted to establish a non-partisan citizen's commission to draw district boundaries.
You know, citizens of that state Republicans generally refer to as socialists, commies, and hippies.

I do not get the sense from your post if you advocate for non-partisan efforts to draw districts, or if you support Republican efforts to subvert democracy and draw partisan districts.

As to your desire to draw moral equivalency between the parties, I believe that in modern times, almost every single court case involving illegal partisan gerrymandering brought before a judge was because of Republican efforts to subvert democracy.


Edit to add: I clearly remember personally voting for that referendum to make congressional districts be taken away from the legislature, and given to a non-partisan citizen's commission. And I made that vote knowing that it would take away nominal partisan advantage from California Democrats -- I cast my vote knowing it was the right thing to do for democracy and fairness.
 
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Cypress said:
I do not think I even mentioned the Democratic party.
I believe I said that California voted to establish a non-partisan citizen's commission to draw district boundaries.
You know, citizens of that state Republicans generally refer to as socialists, commies, and hippies.

I do not get the sense from your post if you advocate for non-partisan efforts to draw districts, or if you support Republican efforts to subvert democracy and draw partisan districts.

As to your desire to draw moral equivalency between the parties, I believe that in modern times, almost every single court case involving illegal partisan gerrymandering brought before a judge was because of Republican efforts to subvert democracy.


Edit to add: I clearly remember personally voting for that referendum to make congressional districts be taken away from the legislature, and given to a non-partisan citizen's commission. And I made that vote, knowing that it would take away nominal partisan advantage from California Democrats - and cast my vote knowing it was the right thing to do for democracy and fairness.
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Here's what you wrote: ""So, while California is trying to improve democracy, Michigan Republicans (and Republicans elsewhere) are trying to subvert democracy.""


I simply pointed out it was on the ballot in 2005 (Prop 77) and the Democratic Party was against it and it was defeated something like 40% to 59%. So yes we ultimately voted for it years later but Democrats are no different than Republicans in doing what they can for electoral advantage.


I'm all for taking the power away from elected officials to draw up districts to their advantage. It's a complete conflict of interest with concern only for the politicians, not the people in the districts. As part of that though I would want the VRA majority-minority districts removed as well. It doesn't work if you don't. The VRA was created for a very good reason but the country is different today and districts should be drawn by geography not race.
 
Cypress said:
It is just part and parcel of the same problem demonstrated here at the state-level, that we see in microcosm at the message board-scale. Republicans have an affinity for deception, nefarious schemes, lying, and they have an innate hostility to democracy, and work relentlessly to undermine free and fair elections and to thwart the will of the people.

When you get right down to it, anti-democratic authoritarian dictators like Vladimir Putin could learn a thing or two from the Republican party.
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Do Democrats engage in gerrymandering when they are in charge; YES or NO?
 
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